Blown Turbo and then some?

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:14 pm

(copied from KJ/KK section - I posted wrong place)
Hi all, I'm new to the forum and am trying to research and learn as much as I can about my issue. But I've become concerned and impatient and would like some feedback as I'm not sure my repair is going well.
I've owned an '06 Liberty CRD Limited since birth. It is still stock and has just over 76k miles now and no issues really to speak much of until we did this past oil change. A few weeks ago my husband found oil around the turbo and also in the intake hose. I took it into the dealership (ok now I know, don't take it there) and they said the turbo failed. Also, system had oil in the: intercooler, throttle body and EGR. CEL had come on also just before finding this. Codes it threw according to dealership were: P299 = overboost, P610 = control module, P688 = ASD relay, P410 EGR min flow and P0093 Large leak detected. Extended warranty is only covering turbo, turbo gasket and diagnostics and said other parts can be cleaned. Chrysler dealership recommended replacement so I went that route as much as that is hurting the pocket book. (I am keeping all the parts tho in attempts to get warranty to cover, but that's doubtful.)
Got a call that all this was replaced and it was ready to come home last Tues. and said I'd be there Sat. to get it. Then Friday night get a call that they want to keep it longer. Seems they decided to drive it 25-30 miles to be sure everything was ok but they got a CEL at 27 miles and found the EGR was dirty. They cleaned it up and tried again and same results. Now I'll find out tomorrow what they mean by "dirty" and what codes it threw and if they made any progress over the weekend on understanding the latest issue.
In the meantime I started reading forums and am wondering if all this needed replacing. I haven't had it in for a few yrs now and will ask what recalls/PCM updates were last done as I don't remember (asked them not to do any at this time). I will ask if they cleaned the MAF/MAP/boost sensors.

Do you have any suggestions on what other questions I should be asking them? TIA

Sorry so long - I'm quite the talker/typer. I do plan to put a Provent on when I get it home to help in the future. And possibly deleting the EGR... I've learned that much at least in reading this weekend.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:36 pm

MissysCRD wrote:

Sorry so long - I'm quite the talker/typer. I do plan to put a Provent on when I get it home to help in the future. And possibly deleting the EGR... I've learned that much at least in reading this weekend.

If you think that was long then you should read this, the newbie guide(if you haven't already):
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54207

Seriously thats a good read for a newbie to the site, and you will learn lots from it.

On the turbo, its entirely possible that the turbo did not need to be replaced, these things get misdiagnosed pretty often it seems like, usually the P0299 is caused by a split turbo hose. The split turbo hose is relatively easy to check and is free.

It would be helpful if you posted back up when you find out what the most recent code is that it keeps throwing.

As you already know, cleaning the MAP is important. If it has never been cleaned in the time you have owned it that alone could have caused a CEL and or performance issues.

Oil around the turbo is common as well as in the turbo hoses, it is caused by the CCV sending oily mist back into the intake, which combines with the EGR to cause some pretty nasty buildup in the intake.

I'd recommend both you and your DH(dear husband) read through the newbie guide - that should give you a good picture of some of these issues.

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:52 am

Thanks Sir Sam, had just stumbled onto and pulled up that post and was about to delve in when I decided to check for replies. Also spent the morning commute asking DH about what would one see if a turbo failed. I'm a materials analyst at work so I have to get a good picture in my head of all the the workings to understand what might have happened and to ask the right questions of my service manager this AM.
I'll check back with that recent code(s) and any other new info. And I want to know why they feel the turbo failed. The brief education I got this am tells me that the turbo shaft where the oil is present is sealed - so is there a pressure test that can be done on this compartment? I have no evidence that I lost mass amounts of oil anywhere else other than the areas I listed.
I will read on as time permits while pulling a 16 hr work day...
M

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:59 pm

The only effective way to check the turbo is to remove the intake hose from the air-cleaner
to the turbo inlet. Stick your finger into the inlet and try to wiggle the shaft. If there is no
movement (in/out and side-to-side) then the turbo is good.
When the bearings inside the turbo go bad, the shaft will start to wiggle around and destroy
the seal. This will allow oil to escape through the turbo (usually through the exhaust side)
and will have a noticable loss of oil on the dipstick.

There have already been a few turbo failures here on LOST that have lead to a complete
loss of engine oil and catastrophic failure of the engine. Early diagnosis of a turbo problem is
difficult. The best thing you can do is good preventative maintenance.

First, be sure you are using a quality synthetic engine oil rated for turbo-diesel applications.
Most here on LOST use Shell Rotella 5w-40 synthetic or Mobil-1 5w-40 Turbo Diesel Truck oil.
Stay away from the 0w-40 synthetic that the owners manual specifies. The Mobil-1 0w-40
that you find in most stores is not quite up to task for this application.

Second, practice good turbo cool-down techniques. When you park your CRD, allow the
engine to idle for a moment so the turbo has time to wind-down and cool off. If you have
been towing or have been at highway speeds, extend this time even more.

Remember, the turbo gets extremely hot and the engine oil is the only thing keeping it working.
When you shut off the engine, you are shutting off the oil supply to a very hot, fast spinning
turbo. Lack of lubrication and extreme temps are what will cause failure.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:56 pm

Google for Injection Pump/Injector rebuild centers in your Region. Give them a call and ask them for good Light Truck Diesel repair shops in your area, they know them all very well and want to forget the lousy ones since they hurt their business. Happy Diesel owners bring much more business to the Injection Pump/Injector centers than unfixed junk sitting in a salvage yard. Shops that can not establish a relationship with the Injection Pump/Injector rebuild centers do not know what they are doing.
Codes are a suggestion for the Tech to check out and verify, not the Holy Grail of what needs to be replaced on your dime.

Good luck.

PS, Guess what happens to Injection Pump/Injector rebuild centers that do lousy work?
Unlike lousy car dealers, they get dropped faster than the speed of sound by the manufacturers who supply them with parts.
With out parts, they can't fix the stuff and go out of business.

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:54 pm

Warp2diesel - guess I'll try that route next time I need a mechanic since the work was already done last week.

Just off the phone with the Service manager who swears I blew the Turbo seal on the intake side sending lots of oil into intercooler, throttle body and EGR. That was the original problem, plus all the dirty parts the oil contaminated. They HAVE worked on other Liberty CRD's and ones over 60k miles so they say they know that some oil gets in the system, but not the amounts I had.
After replacing these parts (I chose not to go with the cleaning route but kept the parts) and hoses the code it threw was insuffient EGR flow (I'm guessing P0401 but will verify as he didn't have that in front of him when I called). It cleared itself up after about 100 miles and they figure it took that long to burn out any leftover oil. Although they did not clean the MAF or MAP sensors, so who knows. Guess I do those myself once home - but they discourage cleaning the MAF as they said even a fiber left on the wire could cause problems. I'll read the forum for recommended cleaning procedures for these and for the old parts too.
So it's ready to be picked up. I'll look at the turbo later this week to see what I can tell but for now have to go with what they are telling (or selling) me.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:21 pm

The MAF really doesn't need to be cleaned, its the MAP thats on the top of the engine in the intake path that gets all dirty.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:43 pm

Selling you is right. There is a key problem in most dealer service departments, and that is a decided LACK of proper communication between the actual greasy-hands tech and the customer. The breakdown has a name - Service Manager. These people often do not properly communicate the symptoms from the customer (You tell him exactly what is wrong or even provide exact codes... He writes on the sheet: "Cust States Car Broken") leaving the tech to guess with no recourse. The information also flows back from the tech to you, through this same filter - Little to nothing useful or accurate may arrive to your ears.

You may laugh at how I have described this, but this is exactly what has happened (and even the service writer's comment PRINTED OUT to the tech, exactly what I put here) on my CRD. I don't know WHY dealers have instituted this barricade to good communication into the process, but they have. I SERIOUSLY doubt that your service manager has ever seen the inside of one of our turbos, much less be able to point it out on your vehicle.

In all likelihood, your turbo did not need to be replaced. The amounts of oil that get into the intake side from ONLY the CCV (that useless hockey-puck on the top of the engine) are staggering... And made worse by the reality that most of our dipsticks ARE NOT CORRECT in their indication of "full" for the oil. If you over fill the pan (so that the dipstick says full) the engine will promptly begin ejecting the excess oil through the CCV - Right into your intake. The engine will continue this UNTIL it has reached its own happy place, which is a proper 6.4 quarts of oil. You can set your own correct mark on the dipstick by doing a normal oil change, then adding ONLY 6.4 quarts. Where the oil rests on the stick after 30 minutes quietly settling - This is the correct fill mark.

I believe that MOPAR simply selected an off-the-shelf dipstick from the 3.6 gas version, paying little attention to the fact that they were creating a problem. In your case, doing an EHM (Elephant Hose Mod) to eliminate the oil getting into the intake will make your engine happier and MUCH cleaner. As for the EGR, if you choose to do something about that "electronically" rather than dealing with yet another EXTREMELY bad design from Mopar... GDE (Green Diesel Engineering) is a vendor of some amazing tunes that will make your CRD perform the way it is supposed to. The other (and I believe better) option is to combine the GDE with an "SEGR" device, which will completely neuter that problem device. Depending on your area of the country, the SEGR may not be the best option for you. The GDE does not completely stop using the EGR device, but it does eliminate the idiot light in most cases.

Did they replace the actual intake hoses? Hopefully. As far as cleaning the intercooler or anything else, you were right to say no. That is ONLY a method of cleaning your wallet, and has little to no benefit. Had your turbo's seal ACTUALLY blown, the engine would have rapidly gone into a runaway by inhaling its own oil until such point as it completely seized up... In probably about 5 minutes. Obviously this did not happen in your case. Your turbo was fine, and sadly has been replaced for no good reason. This is part of the failure of the dealers to properly diagnose our vehicles. Had they actually "known" about the CRD like they claimed, they would not be spouting the company line about turbo failures. When these things go, it isn't pretty OR subtle.

Your other codes:
Large Leak Detected - This is a phantom code, it means there is an air leak INTO the fuel system, not a fuel leak OUT of the system. Two possible causes: Your fuel filter head is loose, or the system simply cannot meet the fuel demand from the engine by suction all the way from the tank. Our vehicles DO NOT have an in-tank pump from the factory. Search on "Mr Gasket" to find several threads (of which I am contributor to many) about the solution to this problem. It is easy and VERY affordable (less than $75) and will permanently stomp this particular gremlin that Mopar gave us from yet another bad design choice.

Overboost code - Probably due to the MAP sensor being filthy and grimed up. Chlorine-free brake cleaner spray and NO PHYSICAL CONTACT to the thermistor (little metal pill) will clean it off, try this before changing anything else. I was having the same code that was actually a symptom of a VNT glitch in the turbo itself... But you shouldn't be having that problem anymore, if that was the actual cause. More likely, it is just a filthy MAP.

Control module and ASD relay... Hmm. If there was an actual problem with the ASD (Automated Shut Down), your CRD would never leave the driveway. Without that relay and system being ON... Neither is the engine. Ignore this code for now, but think about your battery or alternator - When was the last time the battery was changed? Has the alternator ever been changed? At this mileage and age, both could be coming due, and low power / uneven power will cause all kinds of strange things to happen. The alternator is available at Advance Auto with a lifetime warranty for $150, where the dealer charges $300 with no warranty. Nice of them.

If you are keeping all the old parts from this dealer repair (including the turbo I hope!) you have a nice collection of spares. The turbo itself is something to protect, as I do not believe that anything was wrong with it at all. If it is drenched in oil, that is OK - Keep it that way, it will protect it. I have a spare turbo myself, and I have poured oil through both sides of the housing to completely coat the interior surfaces. Rust or corrosion is the LAST thing you want attacking an unused turbo.

Sorry for the novel, but welcome to the board!

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:55 pm

Thanks Geordi - helpful novel.
Well - the Jeep still sits in the shop as I was called back and told that on the way to fuel it up the CEL came back on again. Service mngr (SM) didn't know what the code was yet as he just got word. He is escalating the issue up in Chrysler. Personally I think my 1/2 hr of 'informed' questions (thanks mostly to this and other forums) got him running scared. I finally got an amount of oil that they found in the intercooler out of him - about a quart. This is why he feels the intake seal blew. With the jeep in the shop I have no idea how big the IC is but DH tells me it looks like a radiator and 1 qt sounds like that could be normal for never having cleaned anything and running w/o an EHM or Provent. Is it?

I know they replaced the hose from turbo to IC but SM wasn't sure if hose from IC to engine was replaced. SM thought it good idea to clean MAP after I suggested it again. Other answers to some of the suggestions - we always use 6.4 qts measured to fill during oil changes. We use Mobil 1 5w-40. We always folow the proper cool down procedures. DH has a Dodge CTD but with gauges so practices safe timed cool downs on the Jeep as do I (he does most the driving while I "cat-nap" on our commute).

It could be possible the fuel filter head is loose as we just changed this during the recent oil change. We'll check that but i think that code went away.

ASD - thank you for spelling that one out as even the SM couldn't tell me what ASD stood for (that makes me feel warm n fuzzy). Original battery and alternator. I'll get a new battery as you're probably right that it's time.

Yes keeping all old parts including Turbo as we too thought they'd be good spares. Not that I wanted to finance any of this, but since this is where we are... I still have hard time believing the turbo went as I had no other warnings, no smoking, no power loss, nothing but a CEL and the oil we saw around the turbo which sounds normal for this mileage.

We'll see what tomorrow's story is.

I thank everyone for their replies and the other posts on this forum. It has taught me a lot an I even impressed my Dad with my knowledge when I called him to tell him my fears about this hay-wire repair.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:09 pm

Where do you live in northern New Mexico USA?

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:52 pm

Sir Sam, I'm NW of ALbq. and West of Los Alamos in Jemez Mtns. Jeep's in Albq. shop.
and you are in CO? What year's your Jeep?
M

dgeist · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:57 pm

Sir Sam wrote:

Where do you live in northern New Mexico USA?

New Mexico, Old Mexico; it doesn't matter. She's still going to have go through the embassy like everyone else!

Seriously, if everyone hadn't already diagnosed exactly what I was going to say, I'd have written the same things (except for Geordi....he's wordy

Perhaps you can sell the turbo and the throttle body back to the dealer for the next customer with whom they don't demonstrate any competency.

Dan

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:10 pm

MissysCRD wrote:

1 qt sounds like that could be normal for never having cleaned anything and running w/o an EHM or Provent. Is it?

on my Provent I drain about 1 oz/thousand miles and ~1/2 that is water (Austin can be humid in the summer) so at 76k miles ~ a quart of oil in the intake sounds right.

(and if you haven't guessed several folks have had really bad experiences with dealerships)

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:13 pm

MissysCRD wrote:

Sir Sam, I'm NW of ALbq. and West of Los Alamos in Jemez Mtns. Jeep's in Albq. shop.
and you are in CO? What year's your Jeep?
M

I'm in fort collins colorado, I have an 05.

I ask because I used to live in Los Alamos, before that I lived just north of Jemez Springs. Pretty area, natural hotsprings, and man, the prime rib in Jemez springs was great.

I probably shouldn't go back, never gonna be as good.

changingtime · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:39 pm

so, how does one clean the intercooler out then?

Patrick Henry · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:41 pm

Missy,

Sorry I'm late to your post. I'm in Albq and my turbo shucked its bearings earlier this year at 80k miles. When it went most of the oil went into the exhaust and the smoke billowed like a refinery fire. You're very lucky to at least replace the turbo under warrenty; I was not, my warrenty expired at 75K. I got caught in a tough spot and had to turn to the stealership to fix it. The one bright spot was the shop let me go in and talk to the mechanic directly about all of the work.

My turbo was like flasher described; the rotor was still in the turbo housing but flopped about loosely and the engine pumped alot of oil out. Had them replace both CAC hoses because the originals were rotting away and had them clean the egr while they were in there. Come to find out there was very little oil in the intercooler, maybe a couple of ounces. I've been running a Provent since day one.

Bad new is tomorrow I'm taking it back in to discuss a stripped oil pan drain plug :furious:

that they over-torqued during the turbo replacement. I have a timing belt change coming at 100K so I'm seriously considering doing it myself.

Feel free to pm me on the Albq dealership experience and I'd be interested in any local diesel mechanic recommendations worth sharing.

PS My gunsmith lives just east of Jemez Springs.

Patrick Henry · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:51 pm

Hoo boy, small world; I used to live in White Rock before moving to Albq.

Changingtime, to clean the intercooler it has to be removed from the vehicle and flushed. Unless you suspect it has alot of oil in it, I wouldn't mess with it.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:54 pm

dgeist wrote:

New Mexico, Old Mexico; it doesn't matter. She's still going to have go through the embassy like everyone else!

Seriously, if everyone hadn't already diagnosed exactly what I was going to say, I'd have written the same things (except for Geordi....he's wordy

Dan

LOL on the embassy... and :goink:

on the other comment. I say FEH in your general direction. :SOMBRERO:

I've driven through Albercantspellit more than a few times in the last few years. Spent 2 days there with a bad fuel pump relay on my RV the last time I was there. Climbing that hill to the Flying J wasn't much fun with low fuel pressure! :ALONE:

BTW: 1 quart sounds about right for the intercooler, like I said - Do an EHM and your intake will stay shiny clean from now on. Cleaning the intercooler involves completely removing it from the vehicle, I do not believe there is any kind of a drain in it from the factory. The ProVent is a type of oil trap on the CCV hose, while leaving the system still connected to the intake as in the factory setup.

Chances are the repeat code is for the EGR - Its nanny-system is a sensitive little monster, probably b/c the programmers at the EPA knew that it both would kill the diesel's economy and lifespan... And that we would try anything to disable the little bastage. If that is the code, smile and tell them that you have a spare EGR at home that you just got from a friend online... And get your CRD away from them. Scanners and fixing that system are better done by yourself without their "help". :mrgreen:

AJN · **Joined:** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:42 am **Posts:** 53

If your old turbo turns out to be defective you can have it rebuilt (with warranty) for about a 1/4 of the price of a new one.

http://usedturbos.net/Catalog/Turbo-Reb ... build.html

Or you can opt for GDE upgrade turbo kit. http://www.greendieselengineering.com/g ... ngProducts

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:39 am

Sir Sam, how long ago was it that you were in the area? I've been here since '99. Maybe we crossed paths? I live north of La Cueva. I love driving home up the canyon, Jeep loves those curves too and I find I'm flying up at 70 mph without even realizing it. So far, no ticket as you know how the cops are up there. Since I don't work at the labs I don't go to LA much, more to Rio Rancho/Albq. westside.

Patrick, I have the old IC off so what would I use to clean it - I've read someone mentioned Simple Green? Use that straight or diluted?
Dealership did send the parts through their clean but says they are still dripping some oil. And how about the EGR? And what IS a throttle body?

Geordi I do have a spare EGR, the one that came off - unless it really was bad. Not sure how I'd know that at this point. I suspect all my troubles to begin with was a dirty intake system and a bad hose. I asked them to keep ALL the parts for me, but not sure they kept the hoses. Reason being is I'm fighting the costs with the extended warranty CO who covered the Turbo replacement and gave $200 towards cleaning of the parts. But now I think they may be right to not cover the other parts since sounds like they are still good.

DH doesn't sound too convinced yet and thinks maybe a seal did go (he has yet to find the time to read up on forums though and may change his mind after reading). Says the oil around the turbo that he saw at this recent oil change was not there on the last change, 6250 miles ago. I'm a bit in tune with my jeeps sounds and nothing changed there. So with only that visible oil, no drop in the oil level on the dipstick and a CEL I really don't feel the turbo seal went and that extra oil found in IC is accumulation. That is really the flag that the dealership is basing their decision on that the turbo is bad.

I'm making a call to the head office today to discuss with regional service dept manager my thoughts that this repair was mis-diagnosed and see where that gets me. Other than this, what other recourse does a consumer have to dispute a repair gone wrong? I talked with the service manager yesterday who sounded like he may have been giving me a song and dance. And I seem to have lost the beat and am not dancing anymore. I understand the SM is just a customer relations person to buffer between you and the tech so they can get their work done. But I agree they get in the way and I'd like to talk to the tech directly (who probably isn't as polished in the art of deceptive speech).

I agree I should get it away from there ASAP, but at the same time want to leave it sit there while I battle the repair. It's funny how when they said it was ready last week and I asked to "be sure to wrap up all the parts - especially if EGR is only dirty as they stated since I knew EGR's were quite unreliable" that I get a call that SM decided to test drive the vehicle 25-30 miles to be sure all is well and , wallah! Gee CEL came back on and is throwing a code for EGR! Hum. I saw that one coming. Then yesterday when I tell him my suspicions after he again says the Jeeps ready he calls back an hour later to say, no still has CEL coming on but each time now they get further in mileage before it happens. I seriously think he's listening to me and questioning this repair also. But he really doesn't work for me (but he should) but for Chyrsler so whatdaya do? (I know - get it out and do the rest myself. Dad has a friend with a full shop so guess I'm heading there since we don't have a garage at the house or the tools.)

Thanks ATN for the rebuild link, DH and I were just talking about that this AM. I guess I'd find out if it really did blow when I send it out. Otherwise besides checking the shaft for wobble to see if that's good, how would I know if it blew a seal?

Ordered a Provent and will have that on next week if I bring jeep home soon. Have folks used a Provent AND EHM together? I could've just gone with EHM and jeep sits outside in driveway, no garage floor to dirty up. But I like the Provent idea and the fact that I can SEE what I'm diverting from the system.

Well time to make the donuts. (think I had too much coffee and this looks long...)
Thanks everyone for discussing this issue with me and helping to educate me. DH is thrilled I'm taking such interest and hopes I take over the oil changes since I said I want to do our own work now.
M

Blown Turbo and then some?

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