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crank, but no start....HELP
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=57632		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  bigbillyboy [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  crank, but no start....HELP
So, my 2005 CRD has been flawless until this morning. It has always been an easy starter and strong runner even in 20F weather. I have a GDE eco tune. Yesterday I drove about 300 miles, no problems. Even ran a quick errand when I got home. Truck started up just fine. This morning, the wife gets in it to go, and crank, but no start. odd. I changed the fuel filter and primed. No start. every time I would crank, the truck wouldn't start, and the fuel filter would be empty. So, I replaced the fuel filter head with the updated MOPAR unit. Primed the fuel system and it started up. Ran around, and all seemed fine. Went out to do some christmas shopping and it would crank for a very long time after we came back out to it. Now I'm worried. We make it home (runs great, when started). I bleed the fuel filter and there is a lot of air in it. seems like I can never quite get the air bubbles out. I bleed about 1/2 gallon into a jug through a clear line, and it just keeps getting bubbles. I inspected the line where it hooks to the filter and all seems fine. If I prime the filter and crank for about 30 seconds it starts. If I leave it sitting for even 5 minutes and don't bleed the filter, I can crank the car dead and it won't start. Where could the leak be? Would putting in a lift pump solve this problem, or just mask another problem?

thanks

Jason
Author:  CATCRD [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
Check the fuel heater plug - the right hand one in the fuel heater puck above the filter. Unplug it, push the primer bulb and see if fuel comes out. Otherwise, remove the filter and check for double o-rings or no o-ring and tighten it back down securely.
Author:  ATXKJ [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
Quote:
If I prime the filter and crank for about 30 seconds it starts


Thats an air leak - it's just a matter of where - fuel head?
heater plug's the most likely - but further down the line's a possibility
Author:  bigbillyboy [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
It's a brand new filter head. i have not wired in the new "updated" heater plug. would that do it?
Author:  flman [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
bigbillyboy wrote:
It's a brand new filter head. i have not wired in the new "updated" heater plug. would that do it?


I suspect you changed it because you already had air problems, or you developed them after the change?
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
I READ and saw you replaced the fuel head so I won't tell you to check that :pepper: :ROTFL: :goink:
I suspect the "silent" leak I and many others have had are at the quick disconnect fitting on top of the fuel tank. It's a cheap plastic clip thing that seals with a "o" ring.
To cure my leak I installed a INTANK lift pump :SOMBRERO: With a intank pump there is NO section of the fuel supply that is under vacuum just like the gasoline system our fuel lines came from :mrgreen:
Anyplace else you install a pump, any brand, there's still some part under a vacuum and sustable to air leaks.

If your "handy" dropping the tank is a no brainer but if your not then good luck keeping a CRD on the road. Dealer support in the US for the CRD is slim to none.

You can try reseating the fitting but it was designed for a pressurized system for a gas KJ and the CRD is a vacuum system. Some have cut the fittings off and put on a hose with clamps. But there's still come piping under a vacuum that can leak.

Back to the fuel head. Make sure the gaskets from the old filter came off with the filter and did not stay on the filter head. This might apply to you as I recall the filter head comes with new filter. But make sure the filter is thight. Make sure the water drain on the bottom is tight too.

It's been said it's as hard to seal a vaccume system as it is a 1000 psi system :banghead:
Author:  bigbillyboy [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
Update:
Installed lift pump underhood. primed. Bled all air from system. No start. Recheck for air. No air. No start. Unhooked feedline and checked for flow from tank, just using the lift pump. good flow, no air bubbles.

Help me understand what happens to the fuel after it leaves the filter. What else could it be. I thought the fuel head and then the lift pump would do it. What's next.

Oh. keep getting a 0093 error code: "large fuel leak" code, but there is no fuel leaking on ground.
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
After the filter the fuel line runs directly to the fuel pump on the engine. Have you verified the fuel is good and not gelling? The 0093 code is telling you that the pump is not able to deliver enough fuel to pressurize the fuel rail properly. Are you able to clear the fault code and verify a solid stream of fuel coming out of the filter with the key-on and no cranking?
Author:  Joe Romas [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
In the distant past there were a couple of instances of a wiring harness getting chaffed somewhere on the left front of the engine near the CP3 pump. Sorry I can't give you more information about where :wink:
Author:  bigbillyboy [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
After the filter the fuel line runs directly to the fuel pump on the engine. Have you verified the fuel is good and not gelling? The 0093 code is telling you that the pump is not able to deliver enough fuel to pressurize the fuel rail properly. Are you able to clear the fault code and verify a solid stream of fuel coming out of the filter with the key-on and no cranking?


I know its not gelling.

I checked the flow from the tank with the lift pump, but did not verify flow through the filter. It was a new filter that came with the new fuel head. I assumed it was good because it was new. I will check that again. So, lift pump on, key on see if there is good flow post filter. How much should I expect to see?



I had an issue with some crappy fuel about 2 months ago. WIF light, new filter and fresh fuel fixed that. No issues in the several tanks since. Is there a screen in the tank that might be getting fouled?
Author:  Joe Romas [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
bigbillyboy wrote:
Is there a screen in the tank that might be getting fouled?


I just looked at the fuel basket I took out of mine. There's a mesh on the bottom of the basket and as near as I could tell one around where a pump would normally be. Not posative on the latter because it's hard to see down in there.

Joe
Author:  bigbillyboy [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
Here's the update from tonight. I double checked flow through the filter and it seems fine. On the discharge side of the filter I was able to fill up a butter tub in about 10 second using the lift pump. I then filled up a clean jug of filtered fuel and gravity fed it directly into the injection feed line. I used a clear tube to be sure I could see if it was drawing fuel. When cranking, the fuel flowed from the jug into the injection pump. I tried bleeding the injectors, and fuel came out of all of them. There is no fuel leak anywhere I can see. I am also convinced that there is no air in the system anywhere.

I'm fearing that the Injection pump is toast, but I'm not quite ready to believe that. My buddy has a 2004 dodge with the common rail, and when his injection pump went out, it was a completely different behavior. Mine will either start (after cranking for a long time), or it will not. His would start and then slowly bog down until it died.

I also noticed that when the key is on, there is a very distinct Hummming coming from the engine somewhere. I can't quite figure out exactly where. I thought I read about a pressure control solenoid on the fuel rail. if this has failed, would that allow all the fuel to bypass, and keep the rail pressure low?

can the fuel rail pressure sending unit, and or the pressure control solenoid fail, and if so, would that cause a different code than the P0093 Major fuel leak code?

I have been clearing the code, but it keeps coming back.

Long post. Late night. Unhappy wife. I'm just not quite ready to believe that the entire injection pump has failed.

Allright, fire away with all of your thoughts.

thanks
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
Here are the main causes for the P0093 error code: air leakage in fuel supply line, stuck open injector, leakage on high pressure side and PCV deviation from expected set point. The last one listed concerns the pressure control valve (PCV) on the back of the high pressure rail. We have seen a few of these parts fail in the field and is will cause an immediate shutdown of the engine. Still, failures of this component are very rare and it might be internal debris preventing the PCV from closing completely. Don't really want to tell you this is for sure the problem as the parts is not cheap and it is near impossible to prove the failure short of trying a new PCV. PCV part number is 5159964AA and sells for around $470 online.

Send us an email with your name and we can verify the tune level you are running. If you have our flash tool we might be able to create a special tune to further root cause the no start by turn off some codes until isolating the issue. There are 4 or 5 faults that all spit out a P0093 error code.
Author:  bigbillyboy [ Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
So, I spent some time today working with the Jeep. Using some tips I found on a dodge commonrail forum, I was able to get the jeep started using a little shot of either. However, once running, the jeep throws a code (p0093) which basically indicates low rail pressure) and goes into limp mode. I disconnected all of the injector return lines and then ran them into 4 separate containers. I ran the jeep for about 3 minutes and all of the injectors returned exactly all of the same amount of fuel. I was checking to see if one of the injectors had a stuck return valve and was bypassing a significant amount of fuel. None appear to. Then I removed the large return line from the rear of the fuel rail and cranked the jeep over. This resulted in a free flow of fuel without the jeep even starting. As a result, I am inclined to believe that the PCV (I think this is what is at the rear of the fuel rail) is stuck or failed. I have a couple of questions about it, however:
1. Should this valve be closed (allow no fuel to pass) unless a certain pressure is reached, specifically startup?
2. Does the jeep use this valve to regulate fuel pressure by constantly varying the opening under normal running conditions? I have read about the cummins commonrail guys plugging one of the pressure relief valves that tend to leak on them with no adverse affects. Would this apply to that?

So, do you think I'm on the right track, or are some of my assumptions way off on this one. The only other option would be the fuel pressure regulator on the CP3, but I'm leaning away from that due to the high volume of flow out the rear of the rail. Thoughts
Author:  bigbillyboy [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP (It's not air in the fuel)
Just want to make sure I understand how the common rail system works prior to replacing my PCV valve. The high pressure pump (cp3) feeds high pressure fuel to the rail. The pressure in the rail is governed by:1.
1. the mprop valve on the cp3 pump. Failing mprop valve or pump would cause low rail pressure
2. the pcv valve on the rear of the rail. This is normally closed unless the computer calls for it to open lowering rail pressure.

According to my reasoning, this valve would be closed and no fuel would be returning to the tank if the computer was getting a low rail pressure message. Sooooo, if, when cranking cold, there is a LARGE flow of diesel from the return line on the rail, (not from the injectors) would it seem sound reasoning to think that the PCV valve had failed and not the mprop valve on the CP3 pump, or the pump itself, as failed mprop valve would result in not enough pressure entering the rail, and the pcv valve would be closed allowing no fuel to return, as it was trying to help the rail get to a certain pressure.

I'm pretty sure that the pcv valve has failed, and I am going to order a new one in the morning, but it's like $400 and I want to be as sure as I can that this is the problem. Your input is welcome.

also, bench tested the fuel rail with the pvc valve with compressed air and found there to be no leakage (but that's only a 120 psi, so I'm not sure that's a fair test of the pcv valve.

Jason
Author:  dgeist [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
bigbillyboy wrote:
Where could the leak be? Would putting in a lift pump solve this problem, or just mask another problem?

Jason


Could be anywhere, and the answers to the questions are Yes and Yes :)

Seriously, if you just put a new head in and you know all the fittings in the engine bay have been checked, I'd be suspect of the fittings at the tank side. Lots of folks have had air leaks there.

Dan
Author:  Drewd [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
Silly question and don't be offended. Are you sure your fuel lines are installed correctly into the fuel head? When I installed my lift pump and Racor fuel head, I accidently reversed the lines. The vehicle took forever to start and it would for a few seconds than stall.
Author:  bigbillyboy [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
Drewd wrote:
Silly question and don't be offended. Are you sure your fuel lines are installed correctly into the fuel head? When I installed my lift pump and Racor fuel head, I accidently reversed the lines. The vehicle took forever to start and it would for a few seconds than stall.


yep. If you read the whole thread, you'll see I've had it running. Just needs either to get it started.


dgeist wrote:
Could be anywhere, and the answers to the questions are Yes and Yes :)

Seriously, if you just put a new head in and you know all the fittings in the engine bay have been checked, I'd be suspect of the fittings at the tank side. Lots of folks have had air leaks there.

Dan


If you read the whole thread, you'd see that replacing the fuel head and lift pump were the first things I did. I'm positive there are no air leaks.
Author:  dkenny [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
sounds like what happened to my wife's jeep.
I replaced the CP3 and it was fine.
I do suspect it was the 'mprop' valve on the back of the CP3 not the pump itself. I wonder if this valve can be replaced.

-dkenny
Author:  bigbillyboy [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank, but no start....HELP
SOLVED!

It was the pressure control solenoid at the rear of the fuel rail, near the firewall. I have learned that the injection system on our CRD's operate very similar to the ones on the Mercedes CDI's and the Freightliner sprinter vans with the 2.7 diesel engine. It was ultimately on a sprinter forum where I found the trouble shooting sequence to diagnose injector leakage, Mprop failure, or the least common, the PCV valve at the rear of the fuel rail.

I also found a diesel injection shop in Portland, Or, that was phenomenal to work with. And they got me the parts cheaper next day than I could have gotten them online for. Just thought you all would want to know. If anyone wants to know the diagnostic sequence to help trouble shoot long crank times/no start, I can post my experience. It would be a fairly long post.

Thanks for all the help
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