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crank but no start - need advice
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=58212		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  sidebrake [ Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  crank but no start - need advice
*Edited with most recent information in top post.

Hi - I have an 05 KJ CRD that will crank over but will not start when hot.

I have tested a number of components and I'm now feeling like I don't know what to check (or how) next. I'm looking for some advice. Here's what I know so far:

Trouble codes - I've been able to pull 3 codes: P0102 air flow sensor (from the ORM), P0093 fuel leak - large fuel leak, and P0118 coolant temperature sensor input high. I cleared all 3 and have not had any additional codes come up in all the crank-but-no-start attempts recently.

Air in fuel (low pressure side) - I have replaced the fuel head (newer stock unit with larger plug for fuel heater) and added a lift pump (in tank). I've checked for air using clear fuel lines about a dozen times, and nothing. This might have been an issue at some point in this Jeep's life, but it seems to be corrected now.

Coolant temp sensor - The sensor has been replaced with a new one after getting P0118. It made no difference. (The code has not come back though either.) Interestingly, if I turn the key to the ON position with the coolant temp sensor disconnected, the electronic throttle control warning light comes on. I'm not sure if that's normal operation...?

Wiring - I've inspected wiring for damage and chafing many times. Nothing found.

Cam angle sensor - Wiring from the cam angle sensor had been repaired by the previous owner, but it is working fine according to my volt meter and it has not set a code.

Fuel rail and high pressure lines - I have not found any leaks at the rail or hard lines.

Drivability - On occasion, I've had extremely brief hesitations at highway speeds (55+ mph) but haven't felt it recently. It accelerates and drives perfectly under most conditions.

Battery and starter - I just put in a brand new Optima red top. The engine cranks just over 200 RPM, whether it starts or not. This is consistent with a friend’s CRD. I don't believe the starter is an issue... but would there be any reason to this that even if its getting enough RPM?

Fuel injector - I noticed a small pool of fuel around the base of the #1 injector, so I removed it to replace the crush washer and o-ring. I had assumed this was the cause of my fuel leak trouble code. Fuel is not collecting around the injector anymore, but it hasn't cured the starting issue.

CP3 pump - I simply don't know how to test this component. I'm really hoping this is not the problem, since even rebuilt units are not cheap. I did verify that the pump was pushing fuel to the rail by loosening the hard line into the fuel rail and watching fuel spray everywhere (dangerous, I know). But, I have no idea if the CP3 pump is building adequate pressure. How would one test this?


Is there any component I'm overlooking? Any other thoughts here? At this point, I'm grabbing at straws but I can't afford to take it to a dealer who won't know how to work on it anyway... I would greatly appreciate any advice here.

Thanks
Author:  dgeist [ Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
How long did you crank it before stopping. The high-pressure pump is self-purging, but I imagine replacing an injector gets a LOT of air in there. Do you know if the injectors are actually firing? Not sure how to test it, but it's a worthwhile thing to check.

Dan
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
Have someone pushing the fuel primer on the filter several times before cranking and then during cranking as well. This should help purge out the air.
Author:  sidebrake [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
dgeist - I've been cranking for intervals no longer than 15 seconds. The FSM is inconsistent, but seems to suggest 10 - 20 seconds is the longest you want to crank. I suppose it's to prevent strain on the starter... however at this point, I've got little to loose, so I'll try longer intervals.

GDE - The primer is rock hard before cranking due to the lift pump, but I will definitely give it a try during cranking.

Thank you both for the tips. I'll give it a shot tomorrow morning and report back. Any further advice is very welcome and appreciated.
Author:  mdalien [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
My scantool has an option to monitor various functions, one being fuel pressure.
It kind of sounds like an air in the line issue.

You might also check your battery voltage on crank, the ABS light coming on might be
signaling a low voltage condition which the computer would fail to fire the injectors.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
Could you possibly have a electrical problem? I'm asking because you have several seeming unrelated problems.

I would first clean and check all the grounds expecially those in the area of the ecm where they bolt to the body. Then swap the relay that powers the ECM with another like the AC in the power distribution box by the battery. I think they are labled on the PDU's lid.
Author:  sidebrake [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
The Jeep is started and warming up in my driveway as we speak!

I'd guess that the extra cranking to clear the air from the rail helped... but it also required a jump from my wife's car while she kept it at about 3k RPM... so it would appear my battery isn't providing enough cranking amps. I'll be replacing that within the next day or two.

Now, I just hope that swapping out the injector seals and water temp sensor has corrected the no start when hot issue....

Thanks again to all.
Author:  sidebrake [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
While I was able to start the Jeep with a new battery, the no start when hot issue still persists. As you can see from my first post, I've tried a number of things to diagnose the issue, but have hit a bit of a wall.

What components might prevent an engine from starting specifically when hot, but have no issue cold?
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
Replace your battery first and see what happens :SOMBRERO:
Author:  sidebrake [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
Yep. Theres a fresh battery in there now.... Drove around for about a half hour. Won't start hot but it will after about 3 hours... Back to my original problem. :(
Author:  WolverineFW [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
sidebrake wrote:
Yep. Theres a fresh battery in there now.... Drove around for about a half hour. Won't start hot but it will after about 3 hours... Back to my original problem. :(


Sounds like your starter solenoid. I had the same problem with my old S-Series Blazer. It would start no problem when cold but as soon as it had been running it would not turn over. Let it cool for a few hours and it would run fine. When hot I could roll start by popping the clutch in 2nd gear since it was a manual transmission. I replaced the starter and all was well again. If you take your starter out, you can have it tested.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
Sorry for your troubles sidebrake. As you have found out, the beast is very hard to start once air is introduced during any fuel system repair. There is a LOT of cranking involved to get all the air out of the IP and rail.

You need to specify whether you can crank it when hot or if the starter simply won't turn over. If it won't crank, problem solved; replace starter. If it will crank but not fire, there could be several potential issues.

First: When replacing the fuel head, did you replace it with an aftermarket one without a check valve? If so, when the engine is stopped, hot fuel in the lines close to the engine will lose some gases and push fuel back up the line. you could also have a stuck check valve.

Second: You could have a fuel issue. If there is any appreciable amount of gasoline or other light volatiles in the fuel, they will boil off when a hot engine is shut off. I've only had this happen in summer but I suppose it could happen in winter as well, especially if the fuel supplier is cheaping out and mixing gas or naphtha into the winter blend instead of #1 diesel.

Third: For reasons I can't explain, a dirty fuel filter has done this to me in the past. This could be a possibility for you as well, especially as you mentioned that you get hesitations while under way at moderate accelerator application. It never hurts to change your filter at the first sign of odd behavior in this beast.

In reality, it could be none of these things, but at least it's somewhere to start looking.
Author:  sidebrake [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
Thanks for the additional thoughts.

WolverineFW - The starter does turn the engine at about the same RPM, hot or cold... it just doesn't want to fire up when hot.

nursecosmo - The fuel head was replaced not long ago with a new stock unit (with the larger fuel heater connector). The fuel filter was also replaced at that time. I'll pull it in the next few days to check for any build-up in there... would the issue with the fuel filter simply be a fuel flow rate issue? To me, it has always just seemed counterintuitive for a diesel engine to have fuel flow problems when hot.

As far as my fuel is concerned, the place I fill up at most regularly sells a good amount of diesel, so I've never questioned it... but if there was an issue, how would I verify and/or correct it?
Author:  nursecosmo [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
sidebrake wrote:
As far as my fuel is concerned, the place I fill up at most regularly sells a good amount of diesel, so I've never questioned it... but if there was an issue, how would I verify and/or correct it?


Buy fuel elsewhere.
Author:  sidebrake [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
Right.... but if I cut half the tank with diesel from a new fuel supplier, its still contaminated. Even if I run the thing down to fumes, there could be some residual contaminants. I'm willing to drop the tank and drain it completely, but don't want to if it can be avoided. What I was trying to ask... is there a way to know for sure if I have bad fuel without completely draining the tank?
Author:  ATXKJ [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
Pull the bottom plug/sensor out of the filter - drain fuel into glass jar - let it settle
water will go to the bottom - junk will be floating - Gas - will smell like Gas...

if it's clean Diesel - it' look/smell like clean Diesel.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
What he said.
Author:  CreepinTJ [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
I had the same issue about 2 months ago and it ended up being the EGR valve. Pain to replace without ripping half the motor off. By the way the 05 has a fuel primer on the fuel filter..push until firm and you should be good (as far as this goes)
Author:  sidebrake [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
CreepinTJ - Thanks for posting. I hadn't really looked at the EGR... What was wrong with yours? Stuck open? Any additional information you could provide would be awesome.
Author:  sidebrake [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: crank but no start - need advice
Resolved!

It turned out to be injector #4. The fuel leak (return to tank) quantity was way too high, so adequate pressure couldn't build in the rail. I replaced the injector and all is right again.

Huge thanks to Keith at GDE, Oregon Fuel Injection, and members of this board (esp. bigbillyboy for this post)!!

If there's anyone out there that is experiencing a similar hot start issue and would like me to elaborate, please just let me know.
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