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Adding things up
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=58237		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  irollgen4s [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Adding things up
Hey guys sorry if this been posted, im just trying to consolidate it into one thread for myself and possibly others.

Im looking into the GDE tunes, and so far the hot tune has my attention. Im looking at shelling out 800 for the hot tune with their tool, then returning it for 300 core charge. And knowing the weak TC on my CRD i know i'll have to go with a stronger one. The question i have here is if the new Euro TC's are strong enough to withstand the hot tune from GDE, or if i will have to go with the extremely expensive suncoast?

Then, im also interested in getting GDE's tranny tune, but im curious to what exactly it changes and if it would compliment the hot tune well. Right now I'm frankenlifted with 265-70-16's with it neutered on the F37 recall.

Thanks for looking guys :JEEPIN:
Author:  arengant [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
So far everyone has reported the Euro TC holding up to the hot tune AND the tcm tune. I don't have either ... YET... I also think getting their tool is a good idea, if you have the money. In my opinion you will have a sweet set up with the Hot tune, Euro, and TCM (the tcm changes shift points for better fuel economy, AND improves offroad torque, I think GDE said you can put it in gear and idle over a curb in 4lo with their TCM tune)

Good luck!
Author:  irollgen4s [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
thanks for the quick feedback! I dont want to drop the cash on the Euro TC for it to shudder with the Hot tune and their TCM tune. Im looking to do it all right the first time and have it last as long as possible.

Im still debating the TCM tune. The F37 tranny tune is somewhat beneficial to me, as most of the roads i drive are usually 60+, and every once in a while my dad takes it to his shop which is a 100 mile drive one way at highway speeds. Im not exactly sure on GDE's shift points, so im hoping someone will chime about that.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
The "euro" TC is now thoroughly proven to be fully up to everything our VMM CRDs can put out over the long haul, even with the rare GDE Turbo kit version that puts out much more power than even their HOT tune. Now that Suncoast is using stronger springs, they are also good. Unfortunately, no one has yet, to my knowledge, done back to back testing of the two. The heavier housing of the Suncoast could add smoothness, particularly when combined with the GDE TCM.

It is important to understand that when you have the GDE HOT ECU tune or an IM SII, an F37'd TCM won't reduce your performance in the usual sense. Where the GDE TCM shines is with fuel economy between 35 MPH and 60 MPH, by keeping the the TC locked until you start applying some serious power at those speeds. If 2/3 of your driving is in that speed range, you will see at least a 3 MPG improvement in your overall mileage numbers. The only drawback is you will notice more vibration through the body when you are applying torque between 1500 to 1800 RPM. This where the heavier Suncoast could make a perceptible difference in smoothness.

If most of your driving is 65 MPH and above on highways and you rarely tow a heavy trailer, the GDE TCM will be of virtually no value to you.

DOC
Author:  irollgen4s [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
Answered all of my questions and looks like the TCM tune isn't right for me. So looks like im going to go with the hot tune, with a euro TC and finally replace the CAC hoses after almost 150k miles :5SHOTS: .

And for order the Euro TC, where would you recommend? i tried looking on moparpartsamerica but i couldnt find it under the obvious sections(transmission, transfer case). Also, does the tranny need to be dropped to replace the torque converter or no? thanks again!
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
Since the Euro TC with heavier springs and new front pump were installed I definetly notice the vibration that Warp2diesel mentions. But it WILL NOT SHUDDER. The extra cost of the heavier mass Suncoast TC that now has heavier springs expecially since the Euro has gone up in price might be worth thinking about :ROTFL:

YES, the trnsmission needs to be dropped.

Adding to what Doc says about the F37 tune. With the full torque Echo tune the transmission behaves much differently (better) then the stock post f37 engine tune. You should get a TC first, then a engine tune. Later you can decide if you would benefit from a transmission tune. It sounds like you would not :juggle:

My driving is 90% short trip city driving and the pre f37 tcm is giving me 2 to 3 more mpg's winter and summer. My shift points are now almost "transparent" as opposed to the "always at the wrong time" of the post f37 tcm. It shifts into 5th at 59 mph and stays there untill speed dropps to around 54, these speeds are according to the speedometer readings. So if a lot of your driving where the speed limits are 55 or 60 then your a good candidate for a tune :JEEPIN:
Author:  irollgen4s [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
I think im going to go with the Euro, just for the fact that It tows maybe once or twice a year and those are jetskis that are a couple hundred pounds each.

Im going to stay post f37 for now, and see how it works after i get the hot tune and euro TC, if i feel like im not getting the best i possibly could out of it, ill probably go with GDE's TCM tune.

Im just curious as to how difficult replacing the TC is. If there transmission doesnt have to be dropped then im sure i have a guy that can do it, but if the transmission has to be dropped i'll most likely have to bring it to the stealership.
Author:  OldSkull [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
irollgen4s wrote:
Answered all of my questions and looks like the TCM tune isn't right for me. So looks like im going to go with the hot tune, with a euro TC and finally replace the CAC hoses after almost 150k miles :5SHOTS: .

And for order the Euro TC, where would you recommend? i tried looking on moparpartsamerica but i couldnt find it under the obvious sections(transmission, transfer case). Also, does the tranny need to be dropped to replace the torque converter or no? thanks again!


For a extra $50 you can get the ECO tune too! I use the ECO in winter and the Hot tune in summer to tow my camping trailer, I read (Don't remember where) the Hot tune is a bit harder on glow plug (Timing issue) and some get issue with the Turbo at Hight Revolution but since I use the "performance" tune to get the maximum HP at low revolution I never experience any kind of issue driving on HW at 60mph.

The "Forté" of the ECO is economy but for towing and climbing big hill the "performance" is a better choice you just have to be smart and don't over revup (AKA +3000rpm).Keep it low or buy a turbo kit from GDE if you like doing donuts :ROTFL:
Author:  irollgen4s [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
Yeah im a pretty calm driver and i never seem to go above 2500 RPM,s but ill more then likely go with the eco tune now just for the peace of mind. Any chance the stock TC would hold up with the ecotune for a while?
Author:  LibertyCRD [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
I ran the HOT tune + Euro TC for about a year. Had no shudder and could tow whatever I wanted to hook onto...but I also didn't pick up hardly any MPGs with the tune.

NOW, I'm running the HOT tune + Euro TC + TCM tune, and now I'm finally seeing better MPGs. My last two tanks have been up 11% or so over where I was before. I CAN get the Euro TC to shudder occasionally now under heavy throttle because there's just so much torque that is NOT being wasted now with the TCM tune.

In my opinion, both tunes do fantastic things for the Jeep but the TCM tune is a better bang for the buck and squeezes more efficiency out of the drivetrain.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
Liberty,

First report of ANY shudder with euro TC.

Please be as detailed and as specific as possible regarding what you are observing under what conditions.

DOC
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
Nobody has mentioned it so I will. GDE has 3 tunes. Eco, Hot and a Eco Full torque tune. The standard Eco tune cuts torque at certain rpms to work with the original torque converter. The full torque Eco tune does not cut output for a weak TC and engine output is a little better then when our CRD's left the factory before the F37 detune.

So in a nutshell I have a jeep is a little better then the castration of the F37 and it drives like the day I bought it.

I towed our 3000-3500# camper with the eco full torque tune, Chrysler Euro TC with my post F37 tcm and had no hint of shudder on a 1500 mile trip. On that trip I got 18-20 miles per gallon depending on fuel quality and if I was in mountains or not.
When I got my original Eco tune my mileage increased around 2 mpg. When my TC was replaced I got the Full torque version. Then when I went got my pre f37 tcm my mpg's increased 2 to 3 more . So all in all my mileage increased between 4 and 5 mpg :-)r
Author:  LibertyCRD [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
DOC4444 wrote:
Liberty,

First report of ANY shudder with euro TC.

Please be as detailed and as specific as possible regarding what you are observing under what conditions.

DOC



It's very simple. 1-3% grade, accelerating, about 80% throttle...the TCM tune locks the TC at 45 in 4th gear and the torque converter will shudder. The Euro TC is WAY better than the original TCs...but it's not superhuman. Remember, the Euro TC is just the original TC with different springs, that's all it is. Occasionally, you'll still get the shudder. But it's a lot less frequent than it used to be and I do not consider it a problem that needs correcting at this time.
Author:  irollgen4s [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
Talked to my dad about it a bit, and we cant see the sense in buying a tune that's going to make us change out a part that is working just fine. The stock TC has shown no signs of shudder what so ever, so if I'm going to go with any tune i think its going to be the eco tune. Thanks for all the info guys!
Author:  LibertyCRD [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
irollgen4s wrote:
Talked to my dad about it a bit, and we cant see the sense in buying a tune that's going to make us change out a part that is working just fine. The stock TC has shown no signs of shudder what so ever, so if I'm going to go with any tune i think its going to be the eco tune. Thanks for all the info guys!



I was going to actually suggest the same thing. And if I had it to do over again, this is what I would have done also.
Author:  irollgen4s [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
Im hoping the eco tune wont stress the TC too much, considering the jeep never see's any towing or any hard driving i think it should be fine.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
irollgen4s wrote:
Im hoping the eco tune wont stress the TC too much, considering the jeep never see's any towing or any hard driving i think it should be fine.



GDE knows what they're doing. If you don't have any shudder now you won't after their Eco tune :BANANA:
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
Liberty,

Very interesting. With either my F37'd TCM or GDE TCM (HOT ECU tune), application of anymore than 50% throttle at the speed you are indicating (45 MPH) will result in TC unlock. (You indicated 3% grade. I am also assuming unladen with no trailer.) If what you are describing is accurate in all respects, you may have been able to apply much more torque to your TC than I have ever been able to. The most "abuse" I have been able to deliver to my TC is towing a 5000 lb trailer, 10% grade, 55 MPH, slightly over 50% throttle. (More than that and the TC unlocks.)

So, you may have been able to "abuse" your TC more than I have. If so, you may have exceeded the limits of the euro TC's abilty to comfortably handle torque. However, the original "production" settings of the GDE TCM would not have allowed you to do what you described. I will have to check with Keith and see if GDE has changed its TCM settings or whether you may have a TCM that is "out of spec". (I was involved in the original TCM development and lobbied for higher torque application before TC unlock, but Keith was concerned about component longevity. Maybe he's tweaked it a bit recently.)

DOC
Author:  irollgen4s [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
Joe Romas wrote:
irollgen4s wrote:
Im hoping the eco tune wont stress the TC too much, considering the jeep never see's any towing or any hard driving i think it should be fine.



GDE knows what they're doing. If you don't have any shudder now you won't after their Eco tune :BANANA:


Alright sounds good! I guess i'll be in touch with them sometime in the near future(hopefully) :SOMBRERO: Thanks again everyone!
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding things up
Irollgen,

I agree with Joe. Just make sure you get the "regular" ECO tune which momentarily drops torque at the TC lockup point to prevent shudder, then restores full torque. The "full torque" ECO or HOT tunes will make your stock TC shudder.

DOC
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