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 Post subject: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Hi, I have a jeep liberty 2,8 l 4 cylinder engine(diesel). Actually I am having a huge problem with mi car. First the problem wasn’t a big problem, it happened once a month only for a short time and it was like one cylinder try to fail. Now the car is very difficult to start and it has lots of fails. First all the instruments in the instrumental panel ranges(most of the time the instrument panel doesnt work) and lots of indicators are always on (brake indicator, low oil indicator, and lots of them). Moreover when the motor is hot it is impossible to turn it on. When you try to star it the motor cuts off the starter and don’t let you star the motor (I doesn’t know where the problem is but when motor is hot is still more difficult to start)So I decided to scan the car and this are the fails that appears:
High speed controller area network communication bus performance (code v0002)

Lost communication with gateway A(code v0146)

So after this I think that the problem comes from the body module.Then I buy a body module(a used one) and I realise that the car still fails in the same way. So that wasn’t the problem. Then I check all of the grounds of the 3 computers and the wiring but it seems like it is all right.

Now I am thinking that maybe the problem comes from the engine module.

So I am writing if anyone can help me with this problem. Thank you very much.


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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:49 pm 
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It's mad because your calling it a "car." It's a JEEP! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Zack, not helpful.

Welcome to the board! Sorry you are having such problems with your CRD, but you have found the best place on the internet to get answers and help for these vehicles. There isn't anything about the Jeep Liberty CRD that hasn't been discovered by the minds here.

A couple questions for you, to help us get you started on the right path:

Where are you located in the world? This can help us by possibly directing you to someone nearby if needed, OR for a local supplier for parts if you need any.
How many miles on your CRD now?
What repairs or modifications have you done (or are aware of) on your CRD? Knowing this can help the diagnosis of your problem.
Has the CRD done anything ELSE strange before this problem?

At first impression, it does seem like the problem is an electrical one. HOWEVER, this does not automatically mean any specific part is bad! For reasons that are known only to Chrysler design, just about EVERYTHING from every switch in this vehicle is routed through a computer somewhere. You can't actually turn on the headlamps without the computer - Turning the switch simply activates a signal to the computer, which then turns on the headlamps. So for your vehicle to be acting strangely and hard to start... This does possibly indicate one of the computers. HOWEVER, just throwing parts at it is not the correct way to solve the problem, unless you are very very rich. You will end up buying a lot of parts for no good reason. As an added caution for you - The computers on most vehicles (This one too) are quite tough and don't usually break unless there has been a power problem or the vehicle has been struck by lightning. I would suspect instead that you are having a power delivery problem from either the battery or the alternator, or the wiring from these. That is partly why I asked what the service history of the vehicle is.

I have seen plenty of cases where a battery will test "good" with OK voltage, but will drop to below acceptable voltage as soon as a starting attempt is made. This makes the computer VERY unhappy in most vehicles, but doesn't cause any real damage - The battery is just dead. I have also seen where the wiring to the battery looks OK on the surface, but inside the connector the wires have actually rotted away, causing a bad connection. This creates even more resistance when trying to start the engine, and will often make a vehicle VERY hard to start. Our engines have very high compression, and require a very large battery to start. If your battery is not over 650CCA rating, it will not be able to properly supply the starter. Starting a hot engine can be more difficult because of thermal expansion, again a weak battery will make this almost impossible.

I hope this helps, let us know the answers to my questions and we can hopefully offer more opinions to point you in the right direction!

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:14 pm 
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Quote:
Zack, not helpful.
x2

Howdy ftuna - Welcome to LOST

I'm not sure if you have 1 big problem or several smaller ones
Quote:
one cylinder try to fail
- running rough sounds like an Air in fuel - or clogged fuel filter problem (do you have the 2.8L? or European 2.5L)

hard to start can be also air-in-fuel or a weak battery - on Libertys the battery has to have enough voltage to turn on the computer - even if it has enough current to turn the engine.

I don't know anything about the codes

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:38 pm 
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....yeah I was just joking around?!?!

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:52 pm 
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Hi
I am located in South America(Argentina). I went to Chrysler Argentina with this problem and they told me that they couldn’t diagnosticate this problem and the only way they could fix my jeep was to try changing the different electrical modules. The jeep only has 59000 km and does not have any modification or repair.
I think like the problem come from the CAN bus communication first of all because the instrument panel does not work in a appropriate way(I test the instrument panel and that’s not the problem). Also when I saw the codes coming from the scanner they confirmed what I was thinking. But I totally agree with georgii, trying parts of the jeep will not solve my problem. The wiring is incredibly huge and there are so many wires to test.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:18 am 
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isn't there a wiring harness behind the fuel filter that been know to chafe and short??? I know someone had a problem like this before and changed the ecm and that didn't fix it.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:03 am 
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First off, can you get the vehicle running at all? If so, what is your voltage tested at teh battery with the vehicle running? It should be around 14v (14.4v is normal)

If you cannot get it started on its own power, you may want to jump your vehicle w/ annother and see if it runs better/starts at all. If so it is definately related to low voltage. If not look into the lost communications code further.

I think the code you are referring to (lost communications with gateway "a") is a U0146 - and more specifically "lost communications with central gateway". This is based on gmctd's post here:
http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38115

At this time I do not know anything more on that code other than it is a network communications code - I will look at service manual when I get home. It may very well be an internal circuit in the engine control computer. It may also be a bad connection at a major intersection of the wiring harness(but I am just guessing here).

Also found this thread from someone who had this issue back in 2008:
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f28/help-obii-u0146-how-do-i-fix-749331/

This thread also lists this info:

Quote:
A DTC or Diagnostic Trouble Code is made up of 5 digits the first of which is one of the following letters:

B - Body
C - Chasis
P - Power Train
U - Network

The 2nd digit indicates:

0 - SAE
1 - MFG

The 3rd digit indicates:

1 - Fuel & Air Metering
2 - Fuel & Air Metering
(Injector Circuit)
3 - Injection Systems or Misfire
4 - Auxillary Emissions Control
5 - Vehicle Speed Control
& Idle Control System
6 - Computer Output Circuit
7 - Transmission
8 - Transmission

The last 2 digits indicate:

Fault (00-99)


Based on that, it is a Network code, SAE (don't know what this means), Issue is in the fuel and air metering area. May be related to a circuit that relates to fuel/fuel delivery

Check all connections under the hood and look for damage. Disconnec and reconnect connections you can gain access to that have to do with fuel/air delivery for a start. Then maybe go to more main connections. This definately sounds more electrical then air in the fuel.

I believe there is a large connector at the fuse panel area - You will have to get to this from under the dash on the back side (Drivers side sitting in vehicle).

There is obviously also a major connection at the engine computer itself. The ECU is located under the hood on the drivers side of the vehicle next to the fender.

There may be other major connections on the harness itself that do not run through computers, but I would start w/ the connection to the ECU and the connection to the fuse panel.

Disconnect the connections and firmly reconnect them again. Do this one at a time and attempt to restart the vehicle each time so you can attempt to narrow down the issue. This can help temporarily clean a possible dirty/corroded contact of a bad connection. If the issue is found, then you will want to disconnect the problem connection and clean all contacts in that connection thoroughly.

If it is not any of those things, it could be the engine control computer. I have had a bad computer in a car before. It turned out that a capacator went out and the whole thing failed causing a no start condition. I tested EVERYTHING on the car first, and finally took a chance buying the ECU and it fixed the issue. This was on a 1990 mittsubishi eclipse, those computers were not designed as well as the modern computers, so it is less likely that is your issue, but you cannot completely rule the possibility out.

Like also mentioned. These things have major issues when air gets in the fuel system. Try bleading the air out of the fuel system and starting from scratch (there should be a procedure for this in your manual, you will have to pump and prime the fuel from under the hood). If this works, even temporarily, it shows there is an air leak in the system. These Jeeps have a pulling type fuel system. The fuel is pulled (under vacuum) at the engine. It sucks all the way back to the tank. Most cars for comparison use a pump in the tank and push the fuel to the engine. The problem with pulling is if there are any small pin hole leaks it will suck air into the system instead of squirting fuel out like the fuel systems that are pressurized from the tank. The air in the system can cause the CRD engine to not start also.

Also, it has been said that the fuel heater circuit has issues on the CRD liberty and cna short and cause problems, not sure what codes this might throw. I am not sure if this short can ruin a computer, etc or not, but you would definatley want to try all possibilities before replacing the computer since if a issue caused the computer to fail it would happen to the new one also.

Hopefully you will have some things to try now. Good luck.

- Mark

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:35 am 
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BlackLibertyCRD wrote:
isn't there a wiring harness behind the fuel filter that been know to chafe and short??? I know someone had a problem like this before and changed the ecm and that didn't fix it.



Unless I missed it you didn't mention the year but this mostly applies to the 06 model year where it seems they raised the fuel filter head mounting bracket to accomadate a larger antilock brake assemblie for the traction control.
The mounting bracket for the filter head has a section of the edge rolled over where the wiring harness goes behind it and it worked out on the 05. But on the 06 with the bracket raised the wiring harness hits a sharp edge that as black liberty says will cut the harness :dizzy:

It's easy to spot IF you know where to look :jester:

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:44 pm 
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Hi
First of all thanks for all the aid.

So I decided to check the battery and was all right. After that (I don’t know way) I decide to play with the engine control unit. I star moving the connector of this control unit and suddenly for just 1 minute all the fails disappeared. After that I decided to look inside the engine control unit. And I take some pictures:

Image Image Image

I was really furious when I saw this. So I decide to think what all this mess was. It is a resistor divider that is emulating the signal of a sensor. One of the pins was cut of and this is the circuit present in my control unit.

Image

It is between the pins 63 from the connector 1 and the 06 from the connector 2. The 06 from the connector 2 I think is a ground but I don’t have the manual. What I really don’t know what sensor is connected to the pin 63 from the connector 1. If anyone can help me with this checking somewhere I will be grateful.

Now I sure I have to change the engine control unit but I am not sure that this will solve the problem.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:52 am 
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There's a link in Sam's guide for noob's where you can download a manual :jester:

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:38 am 
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Pin 1-63 is the signal for the boost pressure sensor. The resistor is being used to modify the observed boost pressure to be able to build more boost. Not sure if this would cause the other issues you noted, but tampering with the wiring could have led to loost connections, etc. How long have you owned the CRD and how many miles in this condition? It seems to be an accident waiting to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:02 pm 
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.....So someone decided to modify the boost signal from INSIDE the ECU housing? Why, because screwing around with it at the plug of the MAP is too obvious and un-doable?

Keith, would a replacement ECU help this guy out? I don't think anyone would want to keep running with goofy loose wires inside their computer.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:47 pm 
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Hi

I am trying to buy the new engine control module for my jeep but in Argentina it is really difficult to find one. After several days searching for it one guy told me that he has one and he wants around U$S2000. That is too much, so I asking anyone if you now where I can buy a ECM in USA for the jeep liberty crd.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:30 pm 
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PM sent.

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TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:28 am 
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Call or e-mail Kieth at GDE he just posted in this link get a new ECM with a tune for better mileage for around 1000 i think it is. That way you will have a new pre-tested ECM with a very nice tune. Or as i get lucky every once in awhile and find one on ebay but if you want it right away kieth is the way to go. Or one of us here in the states can try and find a cheaper one at a dealership for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:15 am 
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Just keep in mind that vehicle specific data must be programmed into the engine computer or it will only run for a few seconds and stop :frankie:
That data is your VID number and the injector information that is 24 digits long. (6 digits per injector) There was originally a bar code sticker on the timing belt cover with the 24 digit injector information. If it's still there write it down. If not you'll need to read it off of each injector.
Given your VIM and injector codes Keith from GDE can have it ready to put in your jeep when you get it. It's mounted on the left fenderwell near the master cylinder on left hand drive cars and is easy to replace.
Otherwise a replacement engine computer means back top the dealer :cry:

I have no idea what would be involved getting a ECM into Argentina.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:47 pm 
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Hi,

After several mails I actually fix the jeep. Thanks to Jim that bought me a used ECM for my jeep. And thanks to Keith that programmed the ECM. They are the best. Thank you very muchhhhh.

The jeep started to work perfectly after changing the ECM. Actually the jeep is having the initial fail.

.I connected the scanner and this is the fail:

Manufacturer controlled fuel and air metering (code number:P1267)

This is why the mechanic that fix my jeep emulate the signal of the MAP and after putting a trimmer (variable resistor) that makes interference in the PCB the ECM started to fail .

When the check light turns on the jeep starts to fail (the turbo doesn’t works any more) and the jeep is turn to emergency mode (go home mode).


Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:55 am 
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ftuna wrote:
Hi,

After several mails I actually fix the jeep. Thanks to Jim that bought me a used ECM for my jeep. And thanks to Keith that programmed the ECM. They are the best. Thank you very muchhhhh.

The jeep started to work perfectly after changing the ECM. Actually the jeep is having the initial fail.

.I connected the scanner and this is the fail:

Manufacturer controlled fuel and air metering (code number:P1267)

This is why the mechanic that fix my jeep emulate the signal of the MAP and after putting a trimmer (variable resistor) that makes interference in the PCB the ECM started to fail .

When the check light turns on the jeep starts to fail (the turbo doesn’t works any more) and the jeep is turn to emergency mode (go home mode).


Thanks


I do believe with a generic scanner the code P1267 is number 4 glow plug is not working. It may still have the ceramic glow plugs which means you need the whole kit.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange problem in my jeep
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:39 pm 
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A glow plug code shouldn't put it into Limp-Mode however. I think he might be experiencing either a MAP sensor failure (VERY possibly based on that modded ECM he had!) or a MAF sensor failure.

I know that the annoying sensors on the airbox (both of them) are involved in the stock computer's EGR nanny-system for the USA-spec engines, but don't forget he is in Argentina.

Sebastian, do you have a spare MAP sensor, or have you cleaned yours recently? I have to go out now, but I will look around later to see if I have a spare MAP sensor. I think I have a couple of them laying around from my time chasing gremlins.

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Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
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Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


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