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 Post subject: I Found the BSFC Graphs!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:03 am 
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Went poking around the VM Motori website. Under the "Automotive" section, just above the icons for 2 valve and 4 valve engines, there was a link to a pdf file called "Brochure Automotive". It turned out to be the specs for their engines, including HP, Torque, and BSFC graphs.

Our CRD engine is on page 10, the R 428 DOHC.

Minimum BSFC is at 2000 RPM, 200 g/kWh. It looks to stay pretty close to this minimum in a window from 1900 to 2200 RPM.

The BSFC graph goes from 1200 to 4000 rpm. It goes from around 250 g/kWh at 1200 rpm in a steep drop to it's minimum at 2000 rpm, then goes back up in a gentle slope to around 255 g/kWh at 4000 rpm. On the high side, you have to get up to 2800 rpm before you meet or exceed the BSFC at 1600 rpm. Two other points where BSFC is pretty much equal is at 1800 and 2400 rpm.

Torque curve rises up to 410 Nm at 1800 rpm, stays flat out to about 3000 rpm, then drops off gradually to around 350 Nm at 4000 rpm.

HP curve really isn't so much a curve as a straight line, going from 30 kw at 1200 rpm up to 130 kw at 3800 rpm. At 1800 rpm it's making 60 kw, going up roughly 10 kw every 200 rpm from there.

Apologies for not converting from metric, but it's 3 AM now and i want to go to bed. :(

IMHO, from looking at these graphs, wind it up and run it hard! :twisted:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:12 am 
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Here is a link to a brochure on the 2.8.

http://www.vm-motori.it/uploads/doc/1162.pdf

And a link to the PDF mentioned above.

http://www.vm-motori.it/uploads/doc/29.pdf

Interesting info.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:00 am 
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Wonder how our engine is tuned for US market changes the points on the grafts? We have 120 kW engine vs the 130 kW in the link and torque is 400Nm instead 410 Nm shown.

All I can tell you guys is this engine was designed for high rpm driving and 3,000 rpm will never hurt this engine and the max mpg in OD should be (with this tranny) about 2100 to 2200 rpm, or about 73 to 75 mph in OD.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:32 pm 
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Last Saturday I told my friend in Texas about the BSFC graphs for the Cummins HPCR engines.

He has a Ram 2500 Quad Cab 4X4 automatic, early '04 model. Last night I called and he said he'd made a run to Austin, 30 miles each way. With his gearing, 2100 rpm worked out to 67 mph. According to his EVIC, driving to maintain the 1900 to 2100 rpm band, he was getting just under 22 mpg. When he speeded up to 70 or above, or dropped below 1900 rpm, his mpg dropped off to 17.

I'm kinda used to driving by rpm anyway. Speedo on the old Subaru went funky after getting run off into a snow drift in Kansas back in '91 and tends to respond slowly anything over 50 mph, but tach still worked fine. Being a straight drive, it was fairly easy to gauge speed by rpm. :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:27 pm 
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Well I've got 18,500 miles on my Jeep CRD now. I have manually calculated every tank of fuel that's been run through it. I always use #2 diesel. I have noticed that I get my best mileage below 65 miles per hour. Above 65 miles per hour, mileage drops off like a rock. If I go above 75 miles per hour I actually dip into the teens for mileage (gasp!).

Now, this is hard for me to accept because I like to drive 10 over the limit. So on 55 mph road I run 65, and on the Interstate I run 75. That is where I'm comfortable. But that kind of driving is NOT conducive to good mileage with this diesel... so I'm trying really hard to make myself obey speed limits again.

My all time record is an average of about 26 miles per gallon. And I accomplished that by driving 55 everywhere except the Interstate upon which I kept it to 65. Anytime I exceed this and speed I drop my average 3-4 miles per gallon.

That's from my personal hand calculated experience with this Jeep for whatever it's worth.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:48 pm 
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I don't know what to tell you man, we take a trip and set cruise and when we fill I do the math (no EVIC) and we have done 31 to 32 mpg on all occasions. I even keep a record of the fills in Excel for future reference, and checking that tells me she is still averaging about 21 to 22 city.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:59 pm 
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What does BSFC stand for?

I assume it has something to do with max torque/fuel consumed??????

In the tractor world it is HP*hours/gal.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:04 pm 
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Great info in those PDFs! I've been playing with OD/off in all my city driving lately and have seen a fuel mileage increase. The 55+ freeway roll-on speed is incredible with OD/off!

Wheeeeeeee!

Next time I get pulled over I'm going to say, "But officer, I was just trying to keep it in the correct RPM range for fuel economy."

I think they should let us in the commuter lanes...as long as we're doing 70+. :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:10 pm 
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I respect you guys. You are true diesel enthusiasts. I love you guys.. sniffle...I really do.

But it really baffles me how you can get better fuel economy at 75 or 80 miles per hour than you can get at 55. That totally defies the laws of physics, and goes against the good common sense we all have.

Like I said...I respect you guys and I'm not flaming anyone here. But I am really trying to figure out how you guys are doing it. The faster you go, the more wind resistance you meet, the more fuel your engine drinks. It's a lot more than RPM and formulas. :?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:29 pm 
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You heard it here first !

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... ght=#53866

:lol:


Plenty of interesting reading. Nice find !

Greg

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:30 pm 
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jdreckard wrote:
What does BSFC stand for?

I assume it has something to do with max torque/fuel consumed??????

In the tractor world it is HP*hours/gal.


Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. Basically how much fuel is being consumed per hp produced.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:52 am 
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LibertyCRD wrote:
I respect you guys. You are true diesel enthusiasts. I love you guys.. sniffle...I really do.

But it really baffles me how you can get better fuel economy at 75 or 80 miles per hour than you can get at 55. That totally defies the laws of physics, and goes against the good common sense we all have.

Like I said...I respect you guys and I'm not flaming anyone here. But I am really trying to figure out how you guys are doing it. The faster you go, the more wind resistance you meet, the more fuel your engine drinks. It's a lot more than RPM and formulas. :?


3 possible differences here that may account for it. Myself (and oldnavy too I assume) are still running OEM tire size, no lift kit, and using biodiesel. From your two posts and sig, you're running different tires, a lift kit, and running straight #2 diesel.

Tire size - could be that the different size tires have changed your engine rpm's at certain speeds enough to throw you out of the "sweet spot" at anything above 65 mph, or if they're larger and heavier tires, the engine is having to provide just enough extra oomph at speed to rotate them that it's just enough to throw fuel mileage off. Also tread pattern, wear rating of the rubber compound (hardness), air pressure, how well they're balanced, alignment, can affect rolling resistance which can have an effect on fuel mileage.

Lift Kit - raising the CRD may have altered the aerodynamics such that they, well, flat out suck at higher speeds. Generally, higher up off the ground means that much more air going under the vehicle and buffeting around on all those irregular surfaces underneath, creating turbulence and drag. Some of the people I know that are into electric vehicles will go as far as bellypanning the entire underside of their vehicle and installing a front air dam just inches off the ground, and it did make a large difference in the amount of power it took to maintain a certain speed and the range they could achieve. Generally, allowing for the vehicle itself, at speeds over 40 mph wind resistance does become the overriding factor.

Fuel - could be the difference between low cetane winter blend #2 and relatively high cetane B20 biodiesel. We've already hashed this one before, quality of fuel makes a HUGE difference in this beast's performance. B20 and TxLED Diamond Shamrock gave well over 30 mpg on the interstate, Citgo and Exxon were lucky to get low 20's on my recent trip.

And it could be a combination of all the above, plus all the other unknown variables such as terrain, etc.

One other thing to remember, our diesel is basically twice as efficient as a gasoline engine, as well as having different HP and torque curves. From what I've seen playing around over the years with gasoline, electric, and now diesel vehicles, the more efficient a vehicle is to begin with, the effects from small changes in things such as wind resistance, tire pressure, alignment, etc will be larger and more noticeable. On an electric truck I have, switching to Red Line synthetic oil in the tranny and differential netted me a 25% reduction in the amount of power required to drive 20 miles to work during cold weather, actually reduced it below what it took during the summer with 90W dino oil. That truck weighs in at 3500 lbs with all the batteries, but the electric motor is anywhere from 85 to 95% efficient depending on conditions. I then did the same with my Subaru wagon, 2000 lbs four banger gas engine straight drive. No noticeable difference at all, any beneficial effect the synthetic oil may have had as far as fuel economy was lost in the noise because that gasoline engine was so bloody inefficient to begin with, it would have taken a major improvement to have any effect.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:45 am 
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Over the years I have always found that people who have bad MPG results in their diesel cars is failure to think and drive diesel. Most people when they buy a car, buy HP and drive torque. They forget it is the torque that moves them through their economy points, not HP. Remember we are talking about gasser that doesn't reach it's max torque till 4000+ RPM, instead of 1800 RPM, so the slower you can drive it without lugging the engine, the better the fuel economy. The problem is you have no power to accelerate without downshifting to raise RPM's. Most gasser cars will max their MPG at about 35 to 45 MPH today due to tyranny's and fuel management, but any throttle input to make car move fast dropped the MPG's like a rock. Remember if you are making max torque and it remains the same from 1800 RPM to 4000 RPM the aerodynamics has less effect on that engine then one that doesn't hit max torque till 4000 RPM. At 1800 RPM the 3.7L V6 is probably making less then 100 ft lbs torque, as torque goes up, fuel required to make the torque increase is MUCH greater then the diesel requirement to maintain its max torque as engine speed is increased. It is really hard to put into words, other then to say the gas engine far less efficient as RPM's increase then a diesel.

My '83 MB diesel (non turbo) had a "sweet spot" for MPG between 55 mph and about 60 mph over or under those speeds MPG dropped off. This was a none computer controlled engine, so it was pretty simple to understand. My '00 NB TDI 5 spd tranny had the "sweet spot" between 1600 to 2000 rpm and in 5th gear at 1600 rpm would get just past 70 MPG if I was running the 50 cetane B2 fuel, at 2000 RPM cruising down the level interstate. About 60 MPG was possible with same fuel, however once starting past the 2000 RPM's the MPG dropped off fast then leveled out again about 3200 RPM and didn't very much with MPG pretty stable at about 46 MPG regardless of speed until I pasted about 85 to 90 MPH or about 3600 RPM's. In other words I could get the about same MPG at 75 to 90 MPH, only about 3 mpg difference.

Did I make any sense here? I sure hope so. Also the figures are not exact on the NB TDI, because I sold the car 3 years ago and it a little much for me to remember those kind of exact figures.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:56 pm 
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Indeed, when compared to the full rpm range, it's a VERY NARROW band where this sweet spot exists, only 200 to 300 rpm at most. As oldnavy noted, and my friend in Texas saw on his Cummins, anything outside this band and MPG will fall off noticeably, the farther away you get the farther it will drop.

I'll admit, I've been having to learn how to "drive diesel" myself. Even after operating the big Fairbanks Morse gensets on board ship, and working with the big rigs at Freightliner, I found out I still had quite a bit to learn about driving a diesel vehicle.

I have 3 completely different types of vehicles now. One gas, one electric, and one diesel. And each has to be driven and operated differently to get the best performance and economy. Gets confusing sometimes.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:13 am 
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Completed day 4 of the OD lockout experiment. 176 miles, fuel gauge at 7/8 tank. If I had to make an estimate at this point, I'd say it's gained around 20 to 25 miles so far. Normally at this point on the fuel gauge, it would be somewhere between 130 to 150 miles.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:55 am 
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Quote:
I have 3 completely different types of vehicles now. One gas, one electric, and one diesel. And each has to be driven and operated differently to get the best performance and economy. Gets confusing sometimes.
I think that would just be more then this old gizzer could handle.

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 Post subject: Re: I Found the BSFC Graphs!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:33 am 
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i know it is a long shot but anyone still have those pdf s ? :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: I Found the BSFC Graphs!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:46 pm 
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It was just the link to VM Motori's site highlighting the 428 (4 cyc 2.8 L)

like this
http://www.vmmotori.com/a-428-dohc/automotive-en/4-cilindri/a-428-dohcen.html

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The BSFC line is an inverse of the Torque graph i.e. the point of highest torque uses the lowest fuel consumption/energy output

more trouble to explain than it's worth - just focus on gearing to stay at the torque peak - and everything works better.

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 Post subject: Re: I Found the BSFC Graphs!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:02 pm 
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That graph is not correct for our engine.
Ours is the R 428.
Peak torque is a little more than 400nm at 1800-2000 rpm.

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 Post subject: Re: I Found the BSFC Graphs!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:02 pm 
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click on link - scroll down an engine or two and you can have an R

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