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Another Interesting Emissions Story!
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Author:  Silverdiesel [ Sun May 08, 2011 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Another Interesting Emissions Story!
Thanks to all the other CRDers doing this before me other wise I would probably not have the gumption to stand up to these AZ officials.

An emissions story for AZ drivers but all can be advised.

Goal:
Image

This is a Director's Certificate (waiver) but it took next to yelling at these people to let the KJ pass.


--The ADEQ(AZ Dept of Environmental Quality) is closed minded to the prospect of an auto needing inspection has NO test procedure listed so a test can be run. Add to that is they believe diesel is "Smelly. Smokey, Slow, Oily, Sooty, Black smoke emitting, Big truck based" and they literally do not believe light diesel exists in regular autos and light trucks. The manager even said "I had no idea Jeep has Diesel Liberty"'
--My initial contact explaining I am aware of testing flaws and explaining the tests can damage my vehicle was met by "get your Jeep on the rollers or you will not be able to renew your registration". And on the conflict of the Traction control, ESP, ABS/BAS running on only a 1 axle roller they said "Turn off your traction control". I told them turning off ESP still leaves lots of traction control still on line requiring all FOUR wheels rolling.
-- With the manager as witness they conducted the test and I turned off ESP and placed my rear axle on the roller and then went to the pass side as a young tech guy gets in the drivers. He has to shut off the engine and turn back on to check for CELs that restarts ESP again!. I was told to let the techs run the test so I was to leave him alone. When the the antiskid, ESP, BAS/ABS lites came on upon beginning of the roll I reached over and turned off the truck and pulled the keys. "now you got all my TC lites on and now its going to cost me $$ to get Chrysler to turn them off" I said. You could feel the engine go to Limp Mode when the lites came on. The Tech was very surprised and told the manager where the manager went inside to the office, came back and said '' testing stops, you get a Director's Certificate".
I told the manager" I told you so" and how dare you say my truck will fail without testing. He just gave me the waiver. I asked him who he called and he would not give me a name. I told him this is horrible service to insist to an improper test and as state officials he needs to be more empathetic to special situations.

Thanks again to Turbo Tim and others who tested before me and gave me the stones to literally get to yelling at these people. If I never said anything I would have received a fail and have a CEL as well as all the other yellow lites.

Roland
Author:  Silverdiesel [ Sun May 08, 2011 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
Oh Yeah:

They looked under the hood at the very beginning of the test and there was my SEGR and wiring all apparent and all ( I have the SEGR box zipped tied in the area of the turbo control components with wiring running back to the ECU) and they obviously have NO idea what the are looking at ( or for I suppose)!!
Then they shut the hood "everything OK here" was the attitude! :-)r

Roland
Author:  mikey1273 [ Sun May 08, 2011 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
I hope PA doesn't start testing diesel's. We don't have the rollers for Gassers they just check that the gas cap holds the fuel vapors and for 1996 and newer with OBD computers they can interface with the engines preformance is checked that way and a CEL is a failure from at the Door. IF they do I will have to find a shop that does Sprinters or VW TDI for inspection. I save money too.. the standard safety inspection is only like $22. Gassers ad $30 more for the shop to do emissions. When I first took mine in one place didn't understand why I didn't want the emissin done... Duh if its state exempt why would I pay them to do it. I found another place where they understood what diesel was about at least.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Sun May 08, 2011 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
In Illinois we get out of emissions testing because the former Governor Blagoyavitch Could not load his pockets or the State Coffers with the testing, so he shut it down. :pepper: :pepper: :pepper:

Just don't let your car run if the cop pulls you over, that way he/she won't see the CEL if you are doing ORM.
Author:  mrb91 [ Wed May 11, 2011 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
What year is your Liberty that throws CEL when put on a rear wheel only dyno? My 2005 has to be dynoed here in Las Vegas and only my ABS light goes off when on the rear wheel dyno. In regards to your SEGR I noticed the last time I smogged my Liberty the technician put down Not Applicable on the test in the EGR column. I said thats funny since I do have an EGR. He told me the Vehicle Emission Control sticker under the hood didn't say that the Liberty had one so he didn't look for it. After looking at that sticker the only emissions device it says my vehicle has is the catalytic converter. So thats the only emissions device that is going to stay on my vehicle. So now I don't feel guilty at all for nearly tuning out the EGR with my GDE Eco tune. Just some food for thought when dealing with smog. Now I don't know if the 2006's sticker says something different.
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed May 11, 2011 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
The 2006 model goes nuts on the single axle dyno due to having the ESP (Electronic Stability Program) that is not present on the 2005 model. Of course any vehicle with ESP or it's equivalent would likely go nuts on a single axle dyno :banghead: so it shouldn't be a surpise to any tester with the IQ of the average stump :ROTFL: But then if the tester cannot distinguish a diesel from a gas engine I have little hope :furious: Fortunately no testing in my home 20.

Glad to see someone has a valid document to wave in front of future AZ testers at least.
Author:  Silverdiesel [ Wed May 11, 2011 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
This vehicle is a 2006 and yes ESP goes nuts when only rear axle is spinning.
When I got to the testing rollers I was told to "turn off traction control". I hit the ESP switch BUT the roller test means a tech has to sit in the driver's seat (I get to sit in the pass seat) and procedure is for the tech to shut off the engine and restart --- they are checking for CELs --- and of course that TURNS ON ESP again.
If the driver tries to run the truck (keep go pedal mashed/key on) after Limp Mode it will throw a CEL.

ANY yellow warning lites initiated by testing is "all testing stops". Thats when I reached over and shut the engine.
I know the difference of "ABS" lites only and CEL but amazingly the testing people were alarmed to see them.

The outfit Arizona hired to test is just plain ignorant to ESP and light diesel in combination. As I mentioned the manager there even said he had no idea Jeep had a diesel Liberty.

Roland
Author:  Silverdiesel [ Wed May 11, 2011 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
Oh Yeah.
As far as SEGR- I know the techs are to check for "tuners or kits" like Banks or others schilling to that 3/4 to 1 ton diesel truck market. But I really doubt when they opened my hood they had NOOOO idea what to look for or at.
So my "under the hood" was a pass due to utter ignorance.

Roland
Author:  Silverdiesel [ Wed May 11, 2011 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
Some may wonder --- What about gasser vehicles with ESP?---- AZ testing does NOT put these vehicles on rollers, they only get checked by connecting to the "J Plug" under the dash and they look for DTC fault codes. Any pending or a lit CEL and the gasser fails. This is the way they should check the Jeep but an additional test is to check for a sealed pressure condition at the gas tank to verify the vapor recovery system is working and Diesels do NOT have a vapor system.

Roland
Author:  runningbird [ Sun May 15, 2011 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
My wife also had problems at the emmisions place. She called me three times while I was at work saying something is wrong. After 25 minutes on the rollers they gave up and passed her. They would not talk to me on the phone and would not listen to my wife. At least the brake and abs lights went off on there own 1/2 mile down the road.
Author:  Turbo Tim [ Fri May 20, 2011 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
Silver Diesel, you are the MAN!! This time when I went for emissions, I printed off your Directors Certificate and kept it under the sun visor.
The nice man told me that I was in the wrong lane and I informed him that this was a diesel. He got this "I don't believe it" look on his face but just walked off.
My turn they started setting me up for the rollers but I stopped short of it and told them that it DOES NOT go on the rollers! They started to put up a fight but I asked for the head cheese of the place.
I informed him that I was not going to go through what I did last time trying to get all the lights off after they put it on the rollers. I informed him that there was some sort of bulletin that says the diesel Jeeps do not get tested that way because of the traction control.
He started to say something like BS, but then I whipped out the Directors Certificate and he immediately went into this little room and came back out with one just like you had but only with my numbers on it. $9.50 later I was on my way.
Keep that handy if you go or print one off and it works great!
I owe you a cold one for this!
Author:  AZ CRD [ Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
Got her tested today.

Started by being told that I was in the wrong line. When I told them it's a diesel they still told me to get in the gasser line. When I got to the front they scanned the bar code on the door and asked, "Is this a DIESEL?" I answered yes and they told me I was in the wrong line. I pointed out the aspiring rocket scientist who insisted that I get in the gasser line.

I had silverdiesel's Director's Certificate to show them. They couldn't have given a rat's arse. They looked it up in the book that says that all "2005-2010 Jeep diesels" get on the rollers for testing. If I wanted a waiver, I had to go to ADEQ a couple of miles away.

I drove up there. The surly supervisor told me that I should have never been sent to them and they wouldn't talk to me until I failed the roller test twice.

Went back to the privately owned testing station, waited in the diesel line for twenty minutes, and decided to let them have a go on the rollers. Advised them to turn off the ESP after restarting the vehicle before performing the test. Don't know if they did or not, but as they revved it up, it went sideways and one rear wheel came off the rollers. The Jeep lurched forward and nearly took out the fan they had placed in front before the test. I shook my head and said, "Told you so." I probably rolled my eyes as well.

The dash lit up like a Christmas tree with the ABS/ESP lights, but apparently they got enough exhaust to measure 3% opacity--about one tenth of the standard--so I got a pass. ABS/ESP lights went off about a block down the road.

ps Yes I removed the EHM and bypassed the SEGR before going in. Ran 50% biodiesel and Red Line fuel catalyst.
Author:  Silverdiesel [ Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
IIRC the Jeep wanting to jump off the rollers is the traction control trying to match wheel speed by braking the rear wheels to match the stopped front wheels hence the side lurch. They could have damaged you truck those utter idiots!
I had B99 in at the time of my test just in case they got thru a roller sequence but they never did as my CRD quickly went to limp mode and the tech at the wheel quickly applied the brakes. I probably would have done a 0% "black smoke" test if it got through!
Only problem is Diesels in Arizona need to be tested every year--oh well.

Roland
Author:  jinstall [ Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
Some one needs to set up hidden cameras and get all this on video for everyone to share. Seriously. Someone is going to get their CRD broken and it will come in handy.
Author:  JL Rockies [ Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
In Salt Lake County, all vehicles 1997 and newer get tested by plugging into the OBDII port and there's a gas cap pressure test.
Author:  AZ CRD [ Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another Interesting Emissions Story!
jinstall wrote:
Some one needs to set up hidden cameras and get all this on video for everyone to share. Seriously. Someone is going to get their CRD broken and it will come in handy.
I don't think there is a need for the camera to be hidden. It's a government required test for the public, right? What could there be to hide? Next time, which is next year for me, I'll make a point of bringing a video camera.

Since the testing stations are private I guess they could make the case that the can restrict video taping on their private property. If they banned me from their private property could I make the case that I have no way to meet the emissions test requirement of the State and therefore should be granted a waiver?

I think I'll bring an attorney and a video camera with me next time. :idea:
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