LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Starting Problem first thing

Was the fuel filter head replaced, or only the fuel filter? You might try bleeding air from the filter head before the first start of the day. You'll need an 11mm box spanner. Not sure what the pressure regulator is. Part of the injection pump?

Not an elegant solution, but it might work, and it would be less costly than repairing the IP: add a loop in the fuel return line so that it breaks the syphon. The high point in the loop would have to be above the high point on the supply side.

A spring-loaded check valve might also work and would be prettier than a line loop.
The spring would have to be weak enough to open with normal return pressure, but strong enough to close when the engine is off and fuel is draining back to the tank.

I had the same issue, all areas mentioned were checked or replaced under warranty.

Finally they determined it was the main injector pressure pump on top of the engine, they replaced it and starts like a champ every time.

Thank goodness I had the extended warranty.

Cheers!

Before trying a return loop or check valve to see if either would alleviate the non-start symptom, you might try one time parking overnight on a slope such that the front end is lower than the rear.

It seems that perhaps the IP's internal lift pump is losing it's prime overnight and/or the IP is not able to purge air on start. You might try contacting an injection pump service shop for suggestions.

A fuel tank mounted lift pump might help . The line from the fuel filter head to the IP might have a loose connection which allows air in.

Since a similar IP was used on Dodge pickups, there might be something on the web by others who had the same problem.

wobbly,
not sure if you noticed but merlin is posting less replies lately. he has been asked by his employer not to give advice on the internet. he's been a great help with the grand cherokee crds on the jeepforum webstie.

This thread may be relevant:
http://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/chry ... 564/page2/

Note that Merlin, the guru, is in the UK. He might not be too far from you. He's also on Jeepforum.com
and would probably help you there.

Has the cascade overflow valve (COV) on the fuel injection pump been replaced yet?

"OPERATION
The COV has a spring-loaded center spool-piece that has a drilled channel with three passages: one for initial low-pressure lubrication, one for lubrication at housing-pressure , and one for overflow. The valve is operated in three stages based on the level of pressure at the inlet.

Stage 1
When the fuel pressure entering the tip of the COV is between 0 and 3 bar (44psia), pressure is too low to overcome
regulator spring tension and fuel flows through the center channel, only . This passage always allows fuel flow through to the pump center-ring and lubricates the pump bushings and internal moving parts. This circuit also allows air to bleed during initial cranking and returns the air to the fuel tank.
The COV is in Stage 1 during cranking, only"

ive had the jeep fuel system pressure test this morning no signs of leaks im wondering now if it worth trying a inline electric lift pump as there cheap and easy to fit so it should pressurise as soon as the keys turned ?

Author:	whosthedaddy07 [ Tue May 10, 2011 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Starting Problem first thing
Hi ALL ... new member (Jeep Cherokee 2005 2.8crd Manual 6spd Renagade owner ) .... I've been having a starting problem first thing in a morning for months now ( Before Xmas ), had all the glow plugs replaced still the same problem, but it starts fine for the rest of the day once its started , Had a new powerful battery and still the same, new fuel filter and pressure regulator recommended by my local dealer still the same, so yesterday i decided to do a test got one of the old glow plug id still got which i new worked put it into number 1 glow plug wire rail then rested it on the engine turned the ignition on the glow plugs worked fine, Then started the jeep and the glow plugged worked for pre heat and post heat as it should do , with everything connected back up this morning it still turned over for about 10+ seconds then fired up with a puff of white smoke , then starts first turn of the key for rest of the day, its seems like its got no fuel there when left over night any ideas guys or tests i could do ...... Many thanks in advance

Author:	Wobbly [ Tue May 10, 2011 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Was the fuel filter head replaced, or only the fuel filter? You might try bleeding air from the filter head before the first start of the day. You'll need an 11mm box spanner. Not sure what the pressure regulator is. Part of the injection pump?

Author:	whosthedaddy07 [ Wed May 11, 2011 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Wobbly wrote: Was the fuel filter head replaced, or only the fuel filter? You might try bleeding air from the filter head before the first start of the day. You'll need an 11mm box spanner. Not sure what the pressure regulator is. Part of the injection pump? Thanks for the reply...The complete fuel filter and head was replaced about a month ago ive tried bleeding (Priming) filter first thing doesn't do anything differently i think it more the high pressure side of the fuel pump but cant see any kind of leaks which doesnt help also had injectors flow test which was ok to, the reason i think its fuel drain back is if i go to it last thing at night and give it a quick start it starts a little quicker the next morning if that makes sense, the fuel pressure regulator solenoid is on the end of the common rail it got a barring in it which moves backwards and forwards open and shuts on a magnet which helps keep fuel pressure at it max ( so they say ( the dealers) )... and very exspensive to... the only other thing ive heard is the injectors fuel return pipes can leak in air which could cause drain back... ive been to 3 different mechanics now and now luck starting to pull my hair out now....

Author:	Wobbly [ Wed May 11, 2011 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Not an elegant solution, but it might work, and it would be less costly than repairing the IP: add a loop in the fuel return line so that it breaks the syphon. The high point in the loop would have to be above the high point on the supply side. A spring-loaded check valve might also work and would be prettier than a line loop. The spring would have to be weak enough to open with normal return pressure, but strong enough to close when the engine is off and fuel is draining back to the tank.

Author:	whosthedaddy07 [ Wed May 11, 2011 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Wobbly wrote: Not an elegant solution, but it might work, and it would be less costly than repairing the IP: add a loop in the fuel return line so that it breaks the syphon. The high point in the loop would have to be above the high point on the supply side. A spring-loaded check valve might also work and would be prettier than a line loop. The spring would have to be weak enough to open with normal return pressure, but strong enough to close when the engine is off and fuel is draining back to the tank. Thanks for that thats sound like a good quick check ill wait till the weekend and give that a go , that will work on the injector drain off, but theres one on the fuel gear pump im lead to beleave but that one quiet low down for a loop ill pop to my local car spares to see if theyve got a check valve i can use, Big thanks

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Author:	papaindigo [ Wed May 11, 2011 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
You might want to take a look for any wet or dirty wet area at where each injector goes into the head. If I recall correctly a couple of folks have had a leak around the injector base that might cause an overnight bleed down. Fix is to remove the injector, carefully, and reinstall with a new copper washer and O-ring.

Author:	Wobbly [ Wed May 11, 2011 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Here's a description of the fuel injection pump: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25047&p=249350&hilit=injection+pump#p249350

Author:	CABBYGUY [ Thu May 12, 2011 12:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
I had the same issue, all areas mentioned were checked or replaced under warranty. Finally they determined it was the main injector pressure pump on top of the engine, they replaced it and starts like a champ every time. Thank goodness I had the extended warranty. Cheers!

Author:	Wobbly [ Thu May 12, 2011 9:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Before trying a return loop or check valve to see if either would alleviate the non-start symptom, you might try one time parking overnight on a slope such that the front end is lower than the rear. It seems that perhaps the IP's internal lift pump is losing it's prime overnight and/or the IP is not able to purge air on start. You might try contacting an injection pump service shop for suggestions. A fuel tank mounted lift pump might help . The line from the fuel filter head to the IP might have a loose connection which allows air in. Since a similar IP was used on Dodge pickups, there might be something on the web by others who had the same problem.

Author:	whosthedaddy07 [ Thu May 12, 2011 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
CABBYGUY wrote: I had the same issue, all areas mentioned were checked or replaced under warranty. Finally they determined it was the main injector pressure pump on top of the engine, they replaced it and starts like a champ every time. Thank goodness I had the extended warranty. Cheers! Wish i had a warranty so far its cost me £1600 ( $2600 ) i had a glow plug go xmas which had carboned on couldnt get it out total head off ouch and it still wont start first thing

Author:	whosthedaddy07 [ Tue May 24, 2011 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Wobbly wrote: Before trying a return loop or check valve to see if either would alleviate the non-start symptom, you might try one time parking overnight on a slope such that the front end is lower than the rear. It seems that perhaps the IP's internal lift pump is losing it's prime overnight and/or the IP is not able to purge air on start. You might try contacting an injection pump service shop for suggestions. A fuel tank mounted lift pump might help . The line from the fuel filter head to the IP might have a loose connection which allows air in. Since a similar IP was used on Dodge pickups, there might be something on the web by others who had the same problem. Sorry i hadnt got back i decided to break a few fingers 3 infact anyway i try putting my jeep on my parents steep drive but that didnt do anything dont think it was quiet steep anoth . My mechanic as brought a new toy its some kit to to pressurise the fuel system after been drained then pumps smoke thru hopefully finding leaks its booked in this saturday fingers crossed.

Author:	Wobbly [ Tue May 24, 2011 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
This thread may be relevant: http://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/chry ... 564/page2/ Note that Merlin, the guru, is in the UK. He might not be too far from you. He's also on Jeepforum.com and would probably help you there.

Author:	Drewd [ Tue May 24, 2011 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
wobbly, not sure if you noticed but merlin is posting less replies lately. he has been asked by his employer not to give advice on the internet. he's been a great help with the grand cherokee crds on the jeepforum webstie.

Author:	Wobbly [ Wed May 25, 2011 1:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Drewd wrote: wobbly, not sure if you noticed but merlin is posting less replies lately. he has been asked by his employer not to give advice on the internet. he's been a great help with the grand cherokee crds on the jeepforum webstie. Wonder if it's for legal or financial reasons.

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Author:	whosthedaddy07 [ Sat May 28, 2011 9:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Wobbly wrote: This thread may be relevant: http://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/chry ... 564/page2/ Note that Merlin, the guru, is in the UK. He might not be too far from you. He's also on Jeepforum.com and would probably help you there. Thanks for that ive had the jeep fuel system pressure test this morning no signs of leaks im wondering now if it worth trying a inline electric lift pump as there cheap and easy to fit so it should pressurise as soon as the keys turned ?

Author:	Wobbly [ Sat May 28, 2011 11:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Has the cascade overflow valve (COV) on the fuel injection pump been replaced yet? "OPERATION The COV has a spring-loaded center spool-piece that has a drilled channel with three passages: one for initial low-pressure lubrication, one for lubrication at housing-pressure , and one for overflow. The valve is operated in three stages based on the level of pressure at the inlet. Stage 1 When the fuel pressure entering the tip of the COV is between 0 and 3 bar (44psia), pressure is too low to overcome regulator spring tension and fuel flows through the center channel, only . This passage always allows fuel flow through to the pump center-ring and lubricates the pump bushings and internal moving parts. This circuit also allows air to bleed during initial cranking and returns the air to the fuel tank. The COV is in Stage 1 during cranking, only"

Author:	whosthedaddy07 [ Sat May 28, 2011 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
Wobbly wrote: Has the cascade overflow valve (COV) on the fuel injection pump been replaced yet? "OPERATION The COV has a spring-loaded center spool-piece that has a drilled channel with three passages: one for initial low-pressure lubrication, one for lubrication at housing-pressure , and one for overflow. The valve is operated in three stages based on the level of pressure at the inlet. Stage 1 When the fuel pressure entering the tip of the COV is between 0 and 3 bar (44psia), pressure is too low to overcome regulator spring tension and fuel flows through the center channel, only . This passage always allows fuel flow through to the pump center-ring and lubricates the pump bushings and internal moving parts. This circuit also allows air to bleed during initial cranking and returns the air to the fuel tank. The COV is in Stage 1 during cranking, only" No i havn't had the cascade overflow valve replaced ive had everything else replaced but not that, would it be easier to replace the pump as a whole unit, Would of thought if the cov was stay open then it would cause a problem say leaving it for 6-7 hours but it start first time it only over night to the first start the problem is, to be honest i dont know much about jeeps just take mechanics advice and how wrongs he been cost me £1500 so far still in the same state mainly as a glow plug went and it was carboned on....

Author:	Joe Romas [ Sat May 28, 2011 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
whosthedaddy07 wrote: ive had the jeep fuel system pressure test this morning no signs of leaks im wondering now if it worth trying a inline electric lift pump as there cheap and easy to fit so it should pressurise as soon as the keys turned ? The problem with the KJ's fuel system from the fuel tank to the filter head is that it was designed for pressure on the gas (Petrol) KJ's that have a pump in the tank. On the CRD's the fuel lines from the tank to the high pressure pump are under a vacuum. So a pressure test does not mean much Vacuum systems are much harder to seal. As you mentioned a lift pump up by the fuel head can be installed in a few minutes and will show you if air in the fuel is the problem. It was in my case so I installed a Cummins a intank pump and all is well

Author:	Wobbly [ Sat May 28, 2011 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Starting Problem first thing
I read that a COV runs about 35 USD for a Cumins. It's the same valve with a stiffer spring to increase pressure. Our CRD needs a 5 Bar COV. Are you sure that the injector lines are tight? I read that they may be tight enough so that there's no external leakage, but they will allow internal leakage to the return line if not torqued down properly. There's also a test setup to determine injector return leak rates. However, I think you wrote that your injectors are new. So this would probably be an unnecessary test.