Major knocking / hammering sound from motor

Hexus · **Posted:** Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:12 am

paqclan wrote:

Well, I'm not sure if I had a water pump seizure. On my other car, the water pump was in between the timing belt so it got replaced at the same time as the timing belt, but it looks like in the Liberty CRD it's not.

Here's what I'm thinking on doing while I have it all opened up:
Timing Belt
Timing belt pulleys and Tensioner
All Rockers
ARP head studs (do they make a big difference? Seems like a good idea.)
Glow Plugs??? (Never been replaced)

I'm wondering if I should do the water pump, A/C compressor, or power steering pump while I'm in there too. They don't show signs of problems, but they've not been replaced yet.

I replaced the accessory drive belt tensioner a couple years ago.
I just replaced the alternator a few months ago

Anything else you would do at the same time?

Do the lifters with the rockers, don't do just Rockers. The last set I changed had wore 3/32" off the bottom of most of the lifters, that effects things a bit.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:19 pm

You cannot buy just the lifters, or just the rockers. They come assembled as a set. Hexus, you are the first person I have heard with either wearing on the lifters or a story about replacing only one or the other.

Paqclan: Get the Timing Belt Kit from IDparts.com. It comes with everything you will need, all the parts are included. Use the Graf water pump kit, the OEM is a waste of money. The Graf is actually a better pump, that is what has been used on the VW TDI for a very long time with very few failures reported.

IDparts.com also has the rockers and lifters (as a set) and they are the genuine VM parts. I believe they are now like $340 for all 16, but don't quote me on the price.

As for glow plugs, Guess where? IDparts.com has them too. You will want to buy the 7v metal "Etecno" plugs, NOT THE 5V PLUGS. You do not have a 5V system unless the dealer "upgraded" them, and there would be a sticker saying that. The Etecno plugs are $100 for a set of 4.
It is MUCH easier to replace the #3 glow plug without the top valve cover in place, so doing the glow plugs now while you have everything disassembled is a very good idea.

ARP head studs... You will want the kit for a VW 1.9 TDI, kit number 204-4706. You will need TWO KITS to do the CRD. Order them from Summit Racing:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-2 ... /overview/

They don't screw up the shipping or order process, but remember: YOU WILL NEED TWO KITS OF BOLTS to do the CRD.

Hexus · **Posted:** Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:37 pm

geordi wrote:

You cannot buy just the lifters, or just the rockers. They come assembled as a set. Hexus, you are the first person I have heard with either wearing on the lifters or a story about replacing only one or the other.

You can order just lifters or just rockers from just about anywhere that supplies them. That's why they are in 2 different boxes, and that's why they have 2 different part #'s.

Trust me, I've put in 4 sets myself ordered 2, and assembled all 4 of them. The VM specialist sells them seperately, I still have my invoice somewhere, and prior to ID parts having them the guy in Greece sold them as a set or seperately as well, they're still sold on EBAY as seperate items.

The replacement lifters on all 4 that I have done have been longer than the OE ones, even though they were "OEM" , by at least 1/16". I'm not sure if that's a manufacturing defect or something they changed later on, but that doesn't change the fact that holding the new next to the old side-by-side you can see that the new one has a longer lifter tappet than the old one.

thermorex · **Posted:** Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:23 pm

I understand Geordi, I got the set from id parts and they came assembled, one rocker and lifter in a box... Was wondering also what the heck are you talking about, lol. But now that I think more, I remember you got yours from vm specialist in UK. Didn't know they sell them separately...

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:17 pm

thermorex wrote:

I understand Geordi, I got the set from id parts and they came assembled, one rocker and lifter in a box... Was wondering also what the heck are you talking about, lol. But now that I think more, I remember you got yours from vm specialist in UK. Didn't know they sell them separately...

I bought my set from the VM specialist, and they came exactly the same as the set from IDparts - pre-assembled and ready to install. One lifter and rocker together connected per box.

The ones I bought from the VM specialist were a little different in appearance from the factory - they had a tapered bottom of the lifter, although I did not compare their heights. For the life of me, I can't figure out how the lifter would wear down and lose height. It is just sitting in the hole and being pumped up (the little ball head rises) and the bottom just sits in the well providing a counterpoint to the pressure.

paqclan · **Posted:** Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:04 pm

Thank you geordi for the advice on a parts source in IDparts.com. I managed to get the head off in a couple of dedicated weekends. (I know ... learning as I go here). I will post pictures soon.

Verdict is that the timing marks on both cam shafts were off by about 90 degrees. 2 completely broken rockers (in half). 6 more look like the bearing is crushed. I have the head at a machine shop to dip it, grind the valves, etc. They can't get parts for it though, so I am going to provide them.

IDparts has everything I need, but I can't find the valves themselves. I don't know if any are bent yet ... it looked pretty good to me, but I am going to let the pros at the machine shop tell me what they think. Any idea on where to get valves if I need some?

Also, I'm an idiot and I took apart one of the fuel injectors and lost the little 1mm ball. Any idea where I can get one? Or does anyone have a junk CRD fuel injector that I can get from you for the parts?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:32 pm

Your local Bosch fuel injection shop (look in the areas of town where trucks hang out - there should be a fuel injection service place there) should be able to help you out with the injector... And probably admonish you to not take them apart in the future! :mrgreen:

As for the head - Why did you take it off if the only problem was a couple of broken rockers? The rockers are the designed failure point, the valves should be just fine.
With regard to the cams - The timing marks mean nothing on the pulleys themselves. The cams, that "keyway" (that isn't really a keyway) on both cams should be pointing at each other when the cams are properly positioned for the timing pins. Do not have the timing pins in place when you put the valve cover back in place - Let the cams rotate just a little past in-time so that the cover will settle without knocking any rockers off. They should be rotated about 1/12 of a turn - From 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock to 4 and 10 respectively.

Once a couple of the bolts are down for the valve cover, you can rotate them back using vice grips on the ends to return them to pointing at each other and then insert the pins.

paqclan · **Posted:** Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:33 pm

geordi wrote:

As for the head - Why did you take it off

I guess I just wanted to be sure. It was a lot of work to get there, and I wanted to dip the head and clean up the valves.

geordi wrote:

With regard to the cams - The timing marks mean nothing on the pulleys themselves.

That's what I figured when I saw how far off the marks were. It wouldn't have made it home if those marks were correct. I will line them up properly when I set the timing with pins.

If anyone is curious, I posted pictures at https://picasaweb.google.com/1008795961 ... directlink

Hexus · **Posted:** Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:51 pm

I laughed when I saw that wiring harness, I did the same thing with zip ties. Great minds eh?

Pistons look good. Head looks good. Appears you just broke a couple rockers and lifters.

No big deal, just ensure you read the full procedure on your TTY or your ARP studs, depending on how you want to do it.

Those paint marks on the cam sprockets and the fuel pump and the crank mean less than nothing, it's a QC thing to ensure proper torque and means nothing insofar as timing, timing is set by the pins only.

If you had all the parts and experience, you could put that back together in about 12 hours and start it, no problem.

It's not as bad as you think.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:32 pm

I forgot to mention: when you are putting the head back on, follow the pattern in the book, but DO NOT waste your time with the turn-this-many-degrees method if you use the head bolts.

They will never yield.

Whether you decided to use ARP head studs (my recommendation) or use the bolts that come with the gasket set, use the following procedure to clamp the gasket:

Follow the bolt tightening pattern, and tighten each bolt to 70 lb-ft. Then start the pattern again, loosen each bolt in turn and re-tighten to 110 lb-ft, then go on to the next bolt.
Start the pattern a third time, this time just adding torque to 130 lb-ft for the bolts directly adjacent to the cylinders, and 120 lb-ft for the outside rows.

This procedure should be acceptable for either the ARP studs or Mopar bolts.
The only changes for ARP studs would be using the assembly lube on the nut threads and face, washer surfaces and stud threads. DO NOT LUBE on the block end of the studs. Thread the assembled stud in by hand to finger tight, then begin torquing. DO completely remove the stud when you loosen the nut, set the top of the nut flush to the top of the stud, and re-install for torque #2.

Correct usage and torque of the stud should end up with about 1-2 threads visible above the top of the nut when it is fully torqued. If threads are not visible, maximum strength has not been achieved.

Good luck.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

paqclan · **Posted:** Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:33 pm

I really appreciate the detail on the torque process for the head studs. Thank you.

I do have one question about the cams, though. Upon inspection, I noticed some imperfections shown in the following pictures:

Good Cam (for comparison):
https://picasaweb.google.com/1008795961 ... 7883083298

Scratched Cam ... this one is the worse, there is one other not nearly as bad. This was where one of the crushed rockers was:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1008795961 ... 1652351746

Pitted Cam. There are two of these, both on cylinder 1 on the exhaust side:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1008795961 ... 3406547506

Should I be concerned? Am I looking at replacing camshafts?

Mike

Hexus · **Posted:** Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:29 pm

Get a micrometer and measure, if it's more than .010 different then you'll probably need to look at replacing the cam.

If it isn't, and it's just a bit on the edges, don't worry about it.

paqclan · **Posted:** Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:25 pm

I'm clamping the head gasket using geordi's method. I realize the bolts themselves will never yield, but is there any chance of stripping the block. I'm a little worried, having never done this before.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:39 pm

paqclan wrote:

I'm clamping the head gasket using geordi's method. I realize the bolts themselves will never yield, but is there any chance of stripping the block. I'm a little worried, having never done this before.

Stripping the block threads? At 130 or 120 pounds of torque? It shouldn't ever happen, but if it does somehow... I think you would have much larger problems.

You should be just fine following my directions. It is exactly the procedure I use with the head studs. The block threads are plenty strong for just 120/130 lbs of torque, don't forget that another member had their HEAD yield at 140 lbs of torque. The block threads might as well have been in solid rock.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:46 pm

geordi wrote:

paqclan wrote:

I'm clamping the head gasket using geordi's method. I realize the bolts themselves will never yield, but is there any chance of stripping the block. I'm a little worried, having never done this before.

Stripping the block threads? At 130 or 120 pounds of torque? It shouldn't ever happen, but if it does somehow... I think you would have much larger problems.

You should be just fine following my directions. It is exactly the procedure I use with the head studs. The block threads are plenty strong for just 120/130 lbs of torque, don't forget that another member had their HEAD yield at 140 lbs of torque. The block threads might as well have been in solid rock.

Keep in mind that the studs are m12 x 1.25 while the bolts are m12x 1.75. To get the same compression the torque is different because the pitch is different. I would go to 140 pounds on the inner and 130 on the outer if I were retorquing factory bolts completely. Frankly, I think you'd be much better off going with studs, as they have the high strength washer that makes a much better install.

I would not worry at all about the block. You will crush the head before you cause any yielding in the block. I did it and I know.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:40 am

I could be wrong, but I disagree with that thought LMW. Torque is torque. Against the thread pitch, the difference is in how fast the torque rises or falls. A tighter thread pitch will allow a much larger 'turn of the bolt' to increase the torque by X amount, compared against a wide thread where a small turn gets a big increase.

I can back up my statement with the following thought: Where is the thread pitch adjustment on your torque wrench? There isn't, because the rating where it clicks is the same no matter what the thread. How fast it ramps up to that torque is the question. 130lb-ft (inner)/120 lb-ft (outer) is perfectly acceptable for the bolts, I still think that you will get localized yielding if you go to 140 anywhere. You developed those numbers with solid engineering and testing.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:51 pm

A fine thread fastener will apply more clamping force than a coarse thread with the same torque applied to them. Think of a thread as a wedge. What makes a better doorstop (i.e. more pressure and friction on the floor)? A short, steep wedge or a long thin one? Intuitively the thin one will, when the two are driven in with the same force.
Just google it. It's a fact.

paqclan · **Posted:** Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:29 am

It's been a long time, but I wanted to say that I actually did complete this project. The car runs very well now. Much better than before. Learned a lot too. Thank you for all the help everyone.

kidjedi · **Posted:** Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:16 pm

I've been stuck in Worland, Wyoming for three days. Loud knock coming from what seems like the driver's side front of the engine. Feeling the intake hose, it pulses with the knock. Definitely much louder when you take the air filter cover off. When the knock started, we were going up hill in 115 degree weather with 50 mpg winds pulling a trailer. Thick black smoke (soot) started immediately after knock started. Had to drive a bit to get to civilization, which was Graybull, with only two mechanics and they were both out doing stuff in the fields.

The recommendation from the table of old-timers sitting in the gas station restaurant (three of who were retired diesel mechanics) was to press on to Worland where there is a Ford/Chrysler dealership.

The guys here in Worland admittedly know nothing about the CRD Liberty, but they ALL have Ford or Dodge diesels, so they at least know diesels. They are also super nice and very willing to discuss things (I wish the dealer mechanics in Denver were HALF as cool as these guys). Jim has been a rockstar with trying to figure things out and discussing options with me.

Looking at codes and making educated guesses, we pulled two injectors and both tested bad (there is some question as to whether the guys running the testing machine knew what they were doing; we had to send it over to another place with the machine). We waited two days for injectors to come up from Denver (with me paying dealer injector prices and hourly labor). We installed the injectors, copper washers, and o-rings. When we started the Liberty back up, it sounds exactly the same.

Josh (don't remember his handle on the boards) is saying it wouldn't run if it were the intake valve, and since the engine will continue to run (though knocking loudly), it's most likely rockers. The codes have all cleared except for the cylinder three mis-fire code.

It sucks if I paid for two new injectors I don't need, but right now I really just need to get my wife and kid home.

Thoughts?

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:18 pm

kidjedi wrote:

I've been stuck in Worland, Wyoming for three days. Loud knock coming from what seems like the driver's side front of the engine. Feeling the intake hose, it pulses with the knock. Definitely much louder when you take the air filter cover off. When the knock started, we were going up hill in 115 degree weather with 50 mpg winds pulling a trailer. Thick black smoke (soot) started immediately after knock started. Had to drive a bit to get to civilization, which was Graybull, with only two mechanics and they were both out doing stuff in the fields.

The recommendation from the table of old-timers sitting in the gas station restaurant (three of who were retired diesel mechanics) was to press on to Worland where there is a Ford/Chrysler dealership.

The guys here in Worland admittedly know nothing about the CRD Liberty, but they ALL have Ford or Dodge diesels, so they at least know diesels. They are also super nice and very willing to discuss things (I wish the dealer mechanics in Denver were HALF as cool as these guys). Jim has been a rockstar with trying to figure things out and discussing options with me.

Looking at codes and making educated guesses, we pulled two injectors and both tested bad (there is some question as to whether the guys running the testing machine knew what they were doing; we had to send it over to another place with the machine). We waited two days for injectors to come up from Denver (with me paying dealer injector prices and hourly labor). We installed the injectors, copper washers, and o-rings. When we started the Liberty back up, it sounds exactly the same.

Josh (don't remember his handle on the boards) is saying it wouldn't run if it were the intake valve, and since the engine will continue to run (though knocking loudly), it's most likely rockers. The codes have all cleared except for the cylinder three mis-fire code.

It sucks if I paid for two new injectors I don't need, but right now I really just need to get my wife and kid home.

Thoughts?

Pull the intake turbo hose off at the FCV, start the jeep up, feels for puffs of air blowing out the intake.

This video shows what bad rockers can sound like and the exhaust residual puffing out the intake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5v4mJb31sA

That was just partially collapsed rockers, the bearings were very worn but the rockers were intact.

Major knocking / hammering sound from motor

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