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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:09 pm 
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Why do big ships have huge 3 bladed propellers, when a submarine can have 12 or more shorter blades, effectively doing the same job?

Its the same as the horsepower / torque argument. Take fewer big bites out of the job to be done, or lots more smaller ones - The smaller bites take less energy to do, but you have to do them faster (or have more of them in the same time period) to equal the big bites.

Assuming that the clutch is locked, the fans will be spinning at the exact same speed. The metal fan might move more air PER BLADE because of their size, but the inertial weight will always be dragging on the engine no matter what. The plastic fan might only move 25% (fake number) of the air PER BLADE of the metal one, but does it have enough blades to mean that the flow equals out? I don't know, I don't have the plastic one yet to compare.

What I do know is that having that HEAVY metal fan hanging on the front of my engine IS dragging down the economy all the time, where a lighter fan will only cost me power when it is actually locked-on by the clutch. Otherwise, it will cost me virtually nothing in economy. The depth or pitch of that fan doesn't mean much to me at the moment, b/c I know that my original fan clutch is completely gone - it has NEVER activated even when the temp gauge was reading higher while towing in this heat.

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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:57 pm 
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I'm thinking about swapping out the fan when I upgrade to the Hayden clutch, but the photos I'm seeing for part number 52079654AD (supposedly the nylon fan) vary greatly from...

a white nylon fan (only)
Image

..to a black plastic fan encased in housing with cables.

Image

Going from just these two choice, I assume I'm looking for the top (white) model, but I want to be sure.

Anybody done this mod? Which fan should I actually be purchasing?

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05 CRD Limited (black), factory skids, Fumoto Valve, ARP Studs, Hayden HD fan clutch, EGR delete, Seyfert CRD Stage 2, 225/70R16, EGT gauge


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:57 pm 
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kidjedi wrote:
I'm thinking about swapping out the fan when I upgrade to the Hayden clutch, but the photos I'm seeing for part number 52079654AD (supposedly the nylon fan) vary greatly from...

a white nylon fan (only)
Image

..to a black plastic fan encased in housing with cables.

Image

Going from just these two choice, I assume I'm looking for the top (white) model, but I want to be sure.

Anybody done this mod? Which fan should I actually be purchasing?


Yup, top one. Just had one put on mine Friday with the Hayden 2905 during timing belt job. It is surprisingly light compared to the metal one.

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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:12 pm 
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Oh yeah, if anyone wants the metal fan from my CRD you can have it, just cover shipping. I'll probably dispose of it before long.

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2005 Red KJ CRD, TOTALED 12-21-11

2005 Blue KJ Sport CRD, GDE, Magnaflow muffler, Destination AT, Amsoil filters, Fumoto, Timing belt and waterpump @ 99,600, 11 blade nylon fan, 2905 hayden fan clutch, EURO TC




Arguing about whether the glass is half full or half empty misses the point: the bartender cheated you.
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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:36 pm 
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woodtick wrote:
Oh yeah, if anyone wants the metal fan from my CRD you can have it, just cover shipping. I'll probably dispose of it before long.


X2..... I have one also and it's free.

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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:47 am 
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Thanks for confirming, woodtick. Hope to have mine on soon! (and I'll also have a free one for whoever wants it and covers shipping)

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05 CRD Limited (black), factory skids, Fumoto Valve, ARP Studs, Hayden HD fan clutch, EGR delete, Seyfert CRD Stage 2, 225/70R16, EGT gauge


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:39 pm 
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I tend to agree with keith....

The metal fan cost much much more to manufacture than the plastic. Why did they go through the trouble?

Now I agree that a stock fan clutch with xxx,xxx miles on it is garbage, but on paper, the stock fan clutch worked. So with a working fan clutch, Chrysler thought it was worth spending more money on a metal fan..... why ?


I changed my clutch from a dead stock to a hayden, and kept my metal fan..... huge improvement...

remember, that plastic fan blades will twist more under load, reducing their pitch and their air-flow....

That would explain why the metal fan has fewer, larger blades with more pitch. Doing this with plastic would likely result in all the blade twisting and loosing their pitch.

All things being equal, just grab the end of the fan blade with your fingers and try to twist it (direction of making the pitch zero)... the plastic ones have give, the metal ones do not.

Also guys, the plastic fan is going to be designed to operate at a different RPM...

the plastic fan has to be designed to not fly apart at 6,400 rpms (gas motor)...... when put on our diesels, we're essentially under-revving them.

Even one gear down from top gear on the highway climbing a hill.... the CRD's will be at ~2,400 rpms, the gas motors will be at ~3,500.....

Yes, the pulley ratios might be off a little bit, but there is a minimum rpm that you can spin an alternator or a water pump (at engine idle) and since a gas and diesel engine idles at pretty much the same rpm, those ratios are going to be pretty similar.


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:28 pm 
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I'm confused by your reply, crd260.

Keith wrote: "The engine runs cooler because the Hayden clutch must have more drag when unlocked. This should spin the fan faster in most normal driving conditions. When the Hayden is unlocked the plastic fan will use less power than the metal fan, so that should help if using the Hayden. In unlocked states fan drag can be 1-5 hp depending on design, when locked the power can be 10-15hp or more depending on application (automotive)."

But you seem to be saying that one should stick with the metal fan (which I interpret as the opposite of what Keith is saying). Am I completely missing the point of what Keith said?

It seems to me that the plastic fan has more blades which will move more air. Not only that, but it's lighter (generally good).

I suppose a little flex in the plastic may reduce some air flow (less pitch), but it seems like more blades will still equal more airflow, even with a little less pitch... and do the plastic blades really flex so much as to reduce airflow (if so, this is of course a reason to stick with the metal, but I'd like to know the difference between reduced airflow because of flex and reduced airflow because of fewer blades... not to mention more weight)?

I realize the plastic fan is easier to break, but there's probably not a lot of stress on those blades... unless a person's doing it wrong. :)

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05 CRD Limited (black), factory skids, Fumoto Valve, ARP Studs, Hayden HD fan clutch, EGR delete, Seyfert CRD Stage 2, 225/70R16, EGT gauge


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:07 pm 
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My plastic fan felt quite rigid. Will it flex? A little, ... maybe. Don't kid yourself about the metal fan not having any flex. It will flex too.

crd260 wrote:

the plastic fan has to be designed to not fly apart at 6,400 rpms (gas motor)...... when put on our diesels, we're essentially under-revving them.


I can't think of anyone who is dumb enough to spin their engine to 6400 RPM during towing or any overheating situation. :shock:

So, back to reality. Gas or diesel few will run sustained revs above 3200 during towing operations. Either fan will be fine. I suspect the plastic fan to move equal to or more air at any given RPM.

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Arguing about whether the glass is half full or half empty misses the point: the bartender cheated you.
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Last edited by woodtick on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:01 am 
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The question I have for you guys is this: isn't the plastic gasser fan the same as the European wrangler crd? It definitely looks similar...

On the other hand, looking at the metal fan, it definitely looks like it can move more air, I think the lack of issues with ppl with plastic fan is that they do not need the maximum air flow that the metal fan can provide, mainly because of the Hayden fan control that won't let the engine heat that much till it locks up. Even though I personally believe the metal fan can move more air, I am tempted to try a plastic fan with Hayden control. Especially since I tow once in a while and never more than 3k lbs.

Also, the less drag means less power stolen from the engine, is definitely a plus. I was looking into an electric fan conversion, I may need to try a shroud similar to the one I have on my xj from DB offroad, with more smaller e-fans, not necessary the same size. Anybody tried something similar for the crd? How many cfm of air does the crd require to stay cool on a hot (100-120 degree) weather?

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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:58 am 
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kidjedi wrote:
I'm thinking about swapping out the fan when I upgrade to the Hayden clutch, but the photos I'm seeing for part number 52079654AD (supposedly the nylon fan) vary greatly from...

a white nylon fan (only)
Image

..to a black plastic fan encased in housing with cables.

Image

Going from just these two choice, I assume I'm looking for the top (white) model, but I want to be sure.

Anybody done this mod? Which fan should I actually be purchasing?



Whoa, Horsey!

You need to realize that the second fan you posted, the "black plastic fan in a housing with cables" is ALREADY PRESENT. Your CRD has two fans, and this second one is an electric fan mounted IN FRONT of the radiator. It comes on primarily to cool the transmission cooler and air conditioner condenser. It is NOT in any way a replacement for the mechanical fan that is the white plastic fan in your post.


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:32 pm 
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naturist wrote:
Whoa, Horsey!

You need to realize that the second fan you posted, the "black plastic fan in a housing with cables" is ALREADY PRESENT. Your CRD has two fans, and this second one is an electric fan mounted IN FRONT of the radiator. It comes on primarily to cool the transmission cooler and air conditioner condenser. It is NOT in any way a replacement for the mechanical fan that is the white plastic fan in your post.


Yep. But they come up as the same number. That's why I was saying "I'm pretty sure it's the white one," but pointing out the weirdness in case someone else does a search when purchasing parts while loading up for the Timing Belt (et al) change.

Thanks for making sure for me though! :wink:

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05 CRD Limited (black), factory skids, Fumoto Valve, ARP Studs, Hayden HD fan clutch, EGR delete, Seyfert CRD Stage 2, 225/70R16, EGT gauge


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:08 am 
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Quote:
I can't think of anyone who is dumb enough to spin their engine to 6400 RPM during towing or any overheating situation.


The gas engine redlines @ 6,400... it's totally conceivable that someone could rev the 3.7 to redline with the fan clutch locked.

I have a chevy pickup that's a little under-powered, while towing, I routinely shift it at redline (4.3 automatic, foot to the floor)


Even if "best practice" is to not rev the crap out of your engine while towing, people do it, and engineers have to design things to not fly apart under those conditions....

Think about it, if the 3.7 fan flew apart at redline, then 90% of the liberties out there with 3.7's would have grenaded fan blades.. at some point in the vehicles life, someone is going to put their foot to the floor on a 1 2 shifts, on a hot day, going up a hill, with the AC on, etc etc....


my point is, that all things being equal the 3.7 fans are going to be designed to run at a higher RPM.... which means less air flow at any given rpm....

IE
(BS numbers for a point)
3.7 @ 3,500 rpms = 550 CFM
2.8 @ 2,200 rpms = 550 CFM

take the 3.7 fan, and spin it at 2,200 RPMS: 300 CFM


You guys said it yourself, the CRD fan creates more drag... this isn't due to it's weight, it' due to the amount of air it moves....

The rotating mass of something like a fan in a motor like ours is trivial.... our motors don't change their rpms all that much or all that quickly....

of the energy the fan takes, like 2% is for increasing it's speed (IE, it's mass / inertia) and 98% is for moving the air.....

Something like a flywheel on a street bike that revs to 15K can make a difference, because you need to accelerate it from 6,000 rpms to 15,000 rpms for every gear you pull to redline....

but in our jeeps, our clutches usually only lockup when our engines are at a steady state RPM, usually while towing on the highway,,,,,,
And even if they were to be in lockup while our engine is pulling though the gears..... 3,500 rpms in 2nd, down to 2,300 in third, to pull back up to 3,500 rpms before the 3/4 shift? that's hardly any real change in inertia for the rotating mass....

it also ties into what geordi was talking about with different boats and different props...

for example you can get a 3 blade or a 4 blade prop for a mercruiser stern drive...

I know from experience that given the exact same pitch, the 3 blade prop will have a higher top speed, and the 4 blade prop will have better mid range fuel economy.....

different configurations of blades on a fan / prop give it different RPM and flow and drag characteristics..... long story short, they spent the money for a metal fan on our liberties.... there's got a to be a reason for this.... all things being equal the metal fan will outperform the plastic fan in our application....

now if you don't NEED all the cooling power from the metal fan plus the hayden clutch, that's a different story, but for me, with my 5000lbs boat and 5000lbs travel trailer and the fact I live in a coastal city up against a mountain range, I need all the cooling I can get....


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:55 pm 
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crd260 wrote:
I tend to agree with keith....

The metal fan cost much much more to manufacture than the plastic. Why did they go through the trouble?

Now I agree that a stock fan clutch with xxx,xxx miles on it is garbage, but on paper, the stock fan clutch worked. So with a working fan clutch, Chrysler thought it was worth spending more money on a metal fan..... why ?


The R428 2.8 CRD is not a Chrysler engine...It's made by Italian engine builder VM Motori, so the steel fan was probably their idea, not Chryslers.


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:10 am 
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geordi wrote:
Why do big ships have huge 3 bladed propellers, when a submarine can have 12 or more shorter blades, effectively doing the same job?

Its the same as the horsepower / torque argument. Take fewer big bites out of the job to be done, or lots more smaller ones - The smaller bites take less energy to do, but you have to do them faster (or have more of them in the same time period) to equal the big bites.

Assuming that the clutch is locked, the fans will be spinning at the exact same speed. The metal fan might move more air PER BLADE because of their size, but the inertial weight will always be dragging on the engine no matter what. The plastic fan might only move 25% (fake number) of the air PER BLADE of the metal one, but does it have enough blades to mean that the flow equals out? I don't know, I don't have the plastic one yet to compare.

What I do know is that having that HEAVY metal fan hanging on the front of my engine IS dragging down the economy all the time, where a lighter fan will only cost me power when it is actually locked-on by the clutch. Otherwise, it will cost me virtually nothing in economy. The depth or pitch of that fan doesn't mean much to me at the moment, b/c I know that my original fan clutch is completely gone - it has NEVER activated even when the temp gauge was reading higher while towing in this heat.


The submarine one is pretty good.... lol :ROTFL:


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:18 am 
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jeepsterkj wrote:
crd260 wrote:
I tend to agree with keith....

The metal fan cost much much more to manufacture than the plastic. Why did they go through the trouble?

Now I agree that a stock fan clutch with xxx,xxx miles on it is garbage, but on paper, the stock fan clutch worked. So with a working fan clutch, Chrysler thought it was worth spending more money on a metal fan..... why ?


The R428 2.8 CRD is not a Chrysler engine...It's made by Italian engine builder VM Motori, so the steel fan was probably their idea, not Chryslers.


VM motori sells the engine only, the engine comes without the fan ... the fan is selected by the vehicle manufacturer.

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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Having had both the metal fan and the GM 11 blade plastic with the HD V8 fan clutch, I can tell you for a fact the 11 blade GM fan setup moves a lot more air flow through the radiator stack especially at lower RPMs. With the metal fan in stop and go town driving in 100+ F temperatures and humidity in the 80 & 90s, the AC could not keep the vehicle cool, it struggled badly. With the upgrade to the GM 11 blade fan setup, AC performance improved dramatically; it even amazed me.
:BANANA:
Going down the road at 40+ MPH or better, heat was never an issue, even when towing, but in stop and go and sometimes setting in traffic jams in the city, the temperature needle would creep up over the 12 o'clock position and the transmission fluid would heat up to the point it would raise shift points to higher RPM's.
After I changed to the 11 blade GM fan setup, all of these heat related issues never resurfaced again.

I have since added the large hood vents and a secondary transmission 10 plate stacked cooler to further enhance summertime cooling.

If you don't live in the sometimes very hot & high humidity conditions of some states where we can see well over 100+ degrees and humidity in the 90's, fan cooling performance may be of no concern or a non-issue to you. But to those of us who have to deal with these extreme operating conditions, it is a very big issue and any small improvement(s) we can find is most welcomed. :wink:
Total Viscous Heater Delete is coming next!
:2cents:

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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:03 pm 
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I wonder.... diesel engines are more efficient than gasoline engines, and produce less waste heat. I could see a scenario where the cooling system in the gasser is actually more aggressive than the CRD as it probably has more work to do on the daily basis. GM used to sell aux heaters for diesel Suburbans, because they would sometimes struggle to produce adequate cabin heat on cold days. That was never an issue with 350 or 454 powered trucks! It wouldn't surprise me to find the 3.7l fan moving more air to cover the "extra" waste heat.


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:31 am 
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I have swapped the stock 5 blade metal fan on my 2005 2.8 CRD KJ to the 11 blade plastic one off the 3.7 V6, but I used the CRD fan clutch on it.
It blows more air than the metal one, even at tick over, yet it seems quieter, especially in the cabin.
With the CRD clutch on it, it is 500g (1.1lbs) lighter than the stock metal fan.
The only downside I have discovered is higher fuel consumption with the plastic fan vs the metal one...Almost certainly as a direct result of it being able to blow more air...To do this it has to absorb more power from the engine, and therefore you end up using more fuel. I have noticed my average fuel consumption drop from between 32-34mpg to 26-28mpg...A significant increase...So much so I am now considering either modifying the fan, say by removing 5 of the blades and leaving 6 blades, and then rebalancing it, or simply going back to the stock metal fan.
Here is what the 11 blade would look like as a 6 blade:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Metal CRD Fan vs. Plastic KJ Gas Fan
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:33 pm 
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jeepsterkj wrote:
I have swapped the stock 5 blade metal fan on my 2005 2.8 CRD KJ to the 11 blade plastic one off the 3.7 V6, but I used the CRD fan clutch on it.
It blows more air than the metal one, even at tick over, yet it seems quieter, especially in the cabin.
With the CRD clutch on it, it is 500g (1.1lbs) lighter than the stock metal fan.
The only downside I have discovered is higher fuel consumption with the plastic fan vs the metal one...Almost certainly as a direct result of it being able to blow more air...To do this it has to absorb more power from the engine, and therefore you end up using more fuel. I have noticed my average fuel consumption drop from between 32-34mpg to 26-28mpg...A significant increase...So much so I am now considering either modifying the fan, say by removing 5 of the blades and leaving 6 blades, and then rebalancing it, or simply going back to the stock metal fan.
Here is what the 11 blade would look like as a 6 blade:

Image



The fuel consumption between the OEM fan and NO fan is about 2-3 MPG.

The difference between the OEM fan and the V6 one can't be around 6 MPG, you have something else going on here !


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