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| timing belt tool(s) question http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=62094 |
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| Author: | MRausch82 [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | timing belt tool(s) question |
I am curious, will this timing belt tool kit work on our US spec. 2.8's? http://www.lasertools.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=789&item=7127 |
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| Author: | Sir Sam [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
The intake and exhaust locking pins look the same, the tensioner adjuster looks like it would work - but if the pins for it were a different size or spacing it would be useless. The crankshaft locking tool "looks" the same but I cannot be sure. |
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| Author: | Sir Sam [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
Also, the 1053 locking pins is ~$40USD and the 1083 crank locking pin is ~$20 from miller tools. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | timing belt tool(s) question |
The two locking pins for the cams are supposed to be different, the head on one is larger than the other, and the length is slightly different. IIRC, the exhaust side uses a smaller hex head, the intake side is larger and I believe the length is the longer one. The flex plate (flywheel) pin is the longest, and almost smooth except for a knurled grip and the protruding threads. This one isn't truly needed for the timing job... But it helps line everything up. When the pins are all in, the factory witness marks on the crank should be at 12'o clock, the fuel pump witness should point at its mate on the cover (when you reset everything, not at first with the old belt) and the cams... Depend on if anyone ever unlocked the pulleys. If not, they should point at each other. When following the directions for setting the timing and rotating the engine by hand, the fuel pump must start at its witness mark, but will NOT be back at the witness mark after 2 rotations. This is ok. For this kit.... I believe these pins would be correct for the 2.8 engine as well, the large hex head pin and the small hex head pin look correct, as does the longer of the two smooth pins. Not sure what the shorter smooth pin is for, or the coiled-looking pin. The last tool there is the tensioner-arm tool, there is not a camshaft pulley lock with that set. Strictly speaking, you don't need the pulley lock to do the job, but you can't put a lot of tension on the pins and expect them to hold. |
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| Author: | MRausch82 [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
Sir Sam wrote: Also, the 1053 locking pins is ~$40USD and the 1083 crank locking pin is ~$20 from miller tools. How many of the 1053 pins are needed? Also, what is the purpose of the 1085 cam gear holding tool? |
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| Author: | geordi [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | timing belt tool(s) question |
Two cam locking pins are needed, I didn't think they were both 1053 tho. They are slightly different, as pictured. The cam gear holding tool is not pictured there (as it exists for our 2.8 engines) it is a big trapezoid with a handle and two knobs. That tool is used to properly grip and lock both cam gears while installing the belt, as the pins are locating devices only - they cannot hold against the torque of messing with the cam gear nuts, should you need to. |
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| Author: | Sir Sam [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
Ya I've found the two pins to be interchangable, the intake is 1052, the exhaust is 1053. |
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| Author: | ATXKJ [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
Sam - Millertools does not like 1083 http://millerspecialtools.spx.com/Search.aspx?type=1&search=1083 it's happy with 1052/1053 - in fact if you search for VM. - you get a list - that does not include 1083 http://millerspecialtools.spx.com/Search.aspx?type=1&search=VM. (1089 pin? - $20.64, 1085 locking tool is $217.75....) |
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| Author: | camo [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
you dont need all that crap...... good set of metril allen wrenches will do. now, the real science in the TB job is how to spend the least time possible removing the mech fan!!!!! |
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| Author: | geordi [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
camo wrote: you dont need all that crap...... good set of metril allen wrenches will do. no the real science in the TB job is how to spend the least time possible removing the mech fan!!!!! Blowtorch that stupid shroud, then bludgeon the giant wrench holding the fan nut. Lock the fan pulley using a socket onto the bolt behind the pulley at about the 4 o'clock position, through one of the holes in the pulley. Then never reinstall that bastage. I hate that thing. |
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| Author: | camo [ Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
LOL... actually I did cut an inch of the bottom of the shroud and now I can put the fan shroud on and off in about 7 min. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
I have the metal fan on there right now with no shroud... And I don't know why, b/c I am almost certain that the clutch is completely gone anyway. When I install the Hayden clutch and the plastic fan, I will put the shroud in, with that Aussie mod to make the top "removable" so I don't need to fork with it again. I have an idea how to make that mod a little neater too, using the cheap body nuts they sell at the parts store. |
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| Author: | Sir Sam [ Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
I hate that fan shroud too. Asinine design, IMO. |
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| Author: | dirtmover [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
From the instructions on that page this kit is for the following engines Chrysler Voyager 2.5 | 2.8 CRD VM Engine R2516C | R2816C5.05A 01-2008 Grand Voyager 2.5 | 2.8 CRD VM Engine R2516C | R2816C5.05A 01-2008 LDV Maxus 2.5 | 2.8 CRD VM Engine R2516L VM39/40B 05-2009 and here are the VM part numbers for the equivalent tools VM 1068 | LDV196 Flywheel Locking Pin VM 1089 | LDV196 Flywheel Locking Pin VM 1053 | LDV193 Camshaft Locking Pin - Exhaust VM 1052 | LDV192 Camshaft Locking Pin - Inlet VM 1074 Cam belt Holding Tool VM 9660 | H2587 Belt Tensioner Wrench There is also this kit for about half the price which I posted a few weeks ago: http://www.amp-starters.co.uk/Setting-& ... 541-34574/ It specifically states: "Designed to time 2.5/2.8CRD belt drive engines, fitted with or without balance shafts in Chrysler and LDV vehicles OEM Tools: VM1052, VM1053,VM1068/VM1089, VM1080, VM8873, VM9660" |
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| Author: | Tinman [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
geordi wrote: Two cam locking pins are needed, I didn't think they were both 1053 tho. They are slightly different, as pictured. The cam gear holding tool is not pictured there (as it exists for our 2.8 engines) it is a big trapezoid with a handle and two knobs. That tool is used to properly grip and lock both cam gears while installing the belt, as the pins are locating devices only - they cannot hold against the torque of messing with the cam gear nuts, should you need to. What is holding the cams to tighten the gear bolts? The locking pins? I am planning on removing both gears to remove the rear cover so I can get at the water pump. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
The pins can exert some force, but not enough to hold the cams solid against that locking torque. That is where the cam tool comes in. You are seating the cams onto a tapered shaft so as they get tighter, the taper transfers the rotational force into the holding tool and away from the pins. Its not a great design, IMHO. I don't know what possessed them to design a system where the cams had to be adjustable like that, without using something like a set screw to keep them solidly in place. I didn't replace my water pump b/c I REALLY didn't want to attempt removing the cams and possibly screw up the job. I did try loosening them using the cam tool... And got NOWHERE b/c I think the gorilla who reinstalled my engine may have used an air wrench to put them on. I would need to use a breaking bar to try and unlock them. Unless I am forced to... No thanks. |
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| Author: | papaindigo [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
Those cam gears desperately need a woodruff key or equivalent; relying on correct torque on a tapered shaft to hold them in place on the shaft is just simply nuts. Bean counters saving maybe a total of $2 for 2 keys and a tiny bit of machining during production. |
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| Author: | Sir Sam [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
More than that the cam ends do have a "key" that could have been used. It would also clear up problems with the cam gears being reinstalled incorrectly. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
Sam, is there any way we can buy a woodruff and put it into the keyway on the shaft? Is there a matching keyway on the gears themselves? I would be ALL about doing that, the "adjustability" factor in the timing isn't that critical to me, honestly. This engine is designed to change the timing by changing the FUEL cycle time, nothing more. The valves MUST be centered in their cycle, being more than 1 belt tooth off in either direction... And you start shopping for valve rockers. |
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| Author: | papaindigo [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: timing belt tool(s) question |
Alternatively how hard (read cost for those of us that are not capable) to machine a keyway into each cam gear to match what's on the shaft? |
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