LOST JEEPS
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

*Updated* air in fuel with CAT... 7 micron OEM?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=62143		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  blake1827 [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  *Updated* air in fuel with CAT... 7 micron OEM?
Hey it's been a while since I've posted anything but I'm at my whits end with my stalling issue. I've been running a CAT filter and the brass bleeder valve setup for 4 years and for the past 18 months or so stalling after startup has become a regular issue. I've tried everything, I've bleed the air multiple times, changed the filter, pulled a vacuum w/ hand pump and primed the pump regularly and almost always finding it soft. When the temps are high or the engine is warm is the only time I have the problem. I've also had it sit this spring for a over a week while on vacation and it still started up just fine when I returned.

scenario 1: start cold engine, drive up to temp, let sit at least 1 hour or less than 4 hrs likely to stall no matter outside temp; [once engine is cold again (4+ hrs) not an issue; also sitting less than an hour it starts and runs ok]

scenario 2: start cold engine, drive up to temp, let sit 1-9+ hours in summer heat (80F+) likely to stall unless pump has been primed within the last day.

A couple times this summer after it's started up fine in the am I've found myself on the highway with no boost, can't force WOT because air is caught in the system and acceleration is very strained from 50+mph.
When it's cool out and the engine is allowed to fully cool down I don't have the stalling problem.
:evil: I'm fed up with popping my hood and fighting this gremlin! :evil: and can't seem to find any leaks, hard starts after the stall probably aren't doing the motor any favors either.
I do tend to only fill tank after light comes on and still can't figure out a way around this even after bleeding and having a full tank

So just seeking some feedback. I've wanted to install a lift pump but don't feel comfortable to splice fuel line and wires so I may try to find a shop willing to help install. Unless anyone in Denver area is interested in helping and being compensated.

Is the CAT making my problem worse and is a lift pump possibly able to resolve the issue without going to a Rancor unit?
I appreciate any suggestions
Author:  papaindigo [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: air in fuel with CAT, considering lift pump? HELP
If I am reading this correctly you are finding significant air in the system everytime you bleed it, correct? If so you have air getting into the system somewhere between the tank and the downstream side of the fuel filter. On a "puller" fuel pump such a leak often will not show with fuel leaking out. Off hand I'd guess that running a small micron CAT filter might make the quick disconnect fittings in the fuel line more prone to ingestion of air. An in line fuel pump may help this. For installation see http://liberty.eurekaboy.com/kennedy.htm or viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24527&hilit=pump+lift

If cutting fuel and wires is not your thing you might PM Sir Sam down in C Springs and see if he is willing to help.
Author:  ATXKJ [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: air in fuel with CAT, considering lift pump? HELP
If you've been running it for 4 years - that's on the original fuel head - which has it's own problems - but a lift pump is a good fix - and so is a new fuel head - although you'd need to swap the adapter if you still want to run CAT's
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: air in fuel with CAT, considering lift pump? HELP
When the Cat adapter first became available several had your problem pop up and I too think it's because of the finer/better filtration.

I didn't get the Cat adapter because there was no provision for the WIF sensor.

But I did have similiar symptoms from DAY one Mile ONE on my 06. Early on I tried a engine bay mounted Faucet pump using Black Libertie's procedure to see if it cured my problems :banghead:
It did so I went for a more "perment" solution and installed the Ram intank pump and have never looked back. There was no way I would put up with the BS caused by AIF and the dealer was NO help with their "can not duplicate" rubber stamp :furious:
Count me as one who believes the original filter head is fine IF it's not full of hot air :BINGO:
Your not splicing any fuel lines with the intank pump and it's no longer necessary to splice any wires by adding, not splicing, 2 wires from under the rear driver's side seat to the connector on top of the tank. Taking your time the 2 new wires can be run inside the original loom without removing it from the vehicle.

Originally the main obstical to adding one was the connector pins needed were only available by buying various harnesses then splicing them but recently, within the last year or so, someone has found a source for the male and female pins needed in small quanities making splicing unnecessary :BANANA:

Some believe running the tank below a quarter is a bad thing for your CP3 pump :dead:

I have no idea how you've put up with this very annoying problems for 5 years or so and counting. You'll be supprised how much all around better running your CRD will be :SOMBRERO:
Author:  DynoPax [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: air in fuel with CAT, considering lift pump? HELP
I too had a slow air leak, not enough to cause real trouble, but I was annoyed with the primer going soft minutes after pumping and bleeding. A Facet mounted next to the tank and quick disconnect lines removed made a difference. A quick search on the forum should prove eventful, as there were many posts on this very subject...
Author:  dkenny [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: air in fuel with CAT, considering lift pump? HELP
my suggestions

stay with the CAT filter..

add the lift pump. I recently move to the AIRTEX E????..

for splicing the wires..the hard part was accessing the wires under the rear seat..

I mount the lift pump near the battery..while it might not be the best place it works..
I also added a fuel line from the bleed line to the fuel return line with a valve.
open the valve with the Key on..the system self bleeds..close the valve when done and drive away.

hard to add..no..worth it..yes..

-dkenny

for more info..search this site..
Author:  nickademus [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: air in fuel with CAT, considering lift pump? HELP
i just did the intank airtex, we did it in 5 hours with my helper friend being the " flashlight/"hold this" " guy.

he's right, hardest part is pulling up the rear seat to add wires.

not bad at all. really.

just dirty, and do yourself a favor, and drive it till the low fuel light comes on, even then it was kinda heavy.
Author:  blake1827 [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: air in fuel with CAT, considering lift pump? HELP
Thanks for the feedback, I'm in the camp that I don't think there is an issue with the fuel head either, I have a '06 built in July if I remember right. I thought some early '05's were the ones with a issue with the heater puck.

I'm gonna try something different, I researched the CAT filter's the high efficiency 2 micron filters (1R-0750) that Greg made the kits for have a 15 micron standard model also part 1R-1740. So if the 2 micron filter is the causing the stress like papaindigo suggests maybe the less efficient will solve the issue. I'm willing to try it before swapping back to the OEM setup, or a lift pump if I still have problems. I couldn't find stats on how efficient the OEM filter was, but can't imagine it was any better than 15 microns just from looking at it quality wise compared to the CAT filter.

Also I noticed on mopar parts site http://www.mopar.com/service_and_parts/ ... parts.html under fuel filters "Attention diesel owners: Mopar offers a 7-micron diesel fuel filter to keep water from contaminating your injector pump and fuel injectors. See your local Chrysler, Jeep® or Dodge dealer when it’s time for fuel filter replacement."

Anyone hear anything about the 7 micron before I couldn't find a part number listed, out of curiosity I'll call the dealership tomorrow for a price and if it's for the KJ.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: air in fuel with CAT, considering lift pump? HELP
blake1827 wrote:
Also I noticed on mopar parts site http://www.mopar.com/service_and_parts/ ... parts.html under fuel filters "Attention diesel owners: Mopar offers a 7-micron diesel fuel filter to keep water from contaminating your injector pump and fuel injectors. See your local Chrysler, Jeep® or Dodge dealer when it’s time for fuel filter replacement."

Anyone hear anything about the 7 micron before I couldn't find a part number listed, out of curiosity I'll call the dealership tomorrow for a price and if it's for the KJ.


Let us know what you find out about a 7 micron filter :BANANA:

Joe
Author:  blake1827 [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *Updated* air in fuel with CAT... 7 micron OEM?
I dug some more online and seemed it was only for the 5.9 Cummins, but I'll double check. Wish I could find the specs on the OEM filter for micron filtration.

If the 15 micron CAT filter still gives me problems I'm going to try the updated parts 68043086AA Kit, Wiring
1 68043089AA Kit, Fuel Filter/Water Separator Assembly

From the July '09 service bulletin, I don't want to have to deal with figuring out the lift pump thing.
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *Updated* air in fuel with CAT... 7 micron OEM?
The stock KJ CRD fuel filter is a 10 micron unit.
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: *Updated* air in fuel with CAT... 7 micron OEM?
If you check online with some of the filter and FI manufacturers such as Racor or Bosch, there's a lot of documentation as to how a filter that is 5 micron or finer (ie, CAT 2 micron), will strip out any entrained air in the fuel if it is under a vacuum - ie, you're trying to SUCK fuel thru the filter with the CP3 downstream of it.

OTOH, they found that if you kept the fuel at a positive pressure - ie, used a lift pump to push the fuel thru the filter to the CP3 - this problem disappeared entirely.

I'd advise against droppiing down to a 15 micron filter - the same manufacturers I mentioned above, recommend that for a high pressure common rail injection system like on our CRD's, to use at least a 5 micron or finer filter - and for my money and experience over the past 6 years, the CAT 1R0750 is about the best spin-on 2 micron filter that's readily available to us - it's saved my butt more than once on a long trip where I've gotten rubbish fuel.
Author:  racertracer [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: *Updated* air in fuel with CAT... 7 micron OEM?
retmil46 wrote:
If you check online with some of the filter and FI manufacturers such as Racor or Bosch, there's a lot of documentation as to how a filter that is 5 micron or finer (ie, CAT 2 micron), will strip out any entrained air in the fuel if it is under a vacuum - ie, you're trying to SUCK fuel thru the filter with the CP3 downstream of it.

OTOH, they found that if you kept the fuel at a positive pressure - ie, used a lift pump to push the fuel thru the filter to the CP3 - this problem disappeared entirely.

I'd advise against droppiing down to a 15 micron filter - the same manufacturers I mentioned above, recommend that for a high pressure common rail injection system like on our CRD's, to use at least a 5 micron or finer filter - and for my money and experience over the past 6 years, the CAT 1R0750 is about the best spin-on 2 micron filter that's readily available to us - it's saved my butt more than once on a long trip where I've gotten rubbish fuel.




Will our OEM fuel head work with that filter?
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: *Updated* air in fuel with CAT... 7 micron OEM?
racertracer wrote:
Will our OEM fuel head work with that filter?


You'd need the adapter fitting that oldnavy's cohort came out with a few years back, to be able to screw on a Cat filter onto the stock filter head.

Myself, I replaced the stock filter head with a Stanadyne setup, and have a basic filter head with the Cat plumbed in downstream, tystrapped to the battery.
Author:  ATXKJ [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: *Updated* air in fuel with CAT... 7 micron OEM?
Greg only made about a 100 or so and when those were gone that was it.

However many people though that the CAT would fix a leaking fuel head - it didn't - it made it worse.
That was before the upgraded fuel head - so I don't know if anyone's tried them on the new style.
And if you get one - I'd still recommend a lift pump - that fixes a lot of problems.
Author:  racertracer [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: *Updated* air in fuel with CAT... 7 micron OEM?
Anyone out there want to part with their cat 2 micron filter adaptor?
Author:  onthehunt [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: *Updated* air in fuel with CAT... 7 micron OEM?
Threw mine in the trash where they belong. If your seriously considering a different filter I would buy one complete with the head and all. Past member's fuel pumps have been taken out by the installation of this adaptor. There is a reason they are not made anymore.

viewtopic.php?t=21678
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/