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2005 or 2006???
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=62840		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  numbutt1 [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  2005 or 2006???
Hey Yall. So I have pretty much given up on the idea of building a Toyota Diesel and have "settled" for a liberty. I have some concerns with all the ABS, Traction control nonsense though. I had one Jeep guy tell me the 2005 had a button to disarm the TC but the 2006 did not? Im trying to confirm this as it will be the main factor on which year I buy. The least amount of cutting wires and pulling fuses is going to wiegh heavy on my decision. And please don't waste my time with how that stuff is needed etc etc. (every forum I read on TC someones does this) Im old school and I entend to stay that way as long as possible. Thanks for your input
Author:  papaindigo [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
May have been "Jeep" guy but certainly not a KJ CRD guy. What you refer to as TC in the KJ is called ESP (Electronic Stability Program). The 2005 KJ CRD does not have it at all but the 2006 does although it can be turned off in the cab although one would have to do so each time the vehicle is started. Whether or not or how to disable it permenantly I don't know. The only chat I've seen about it being a problem is on winding roads often with a tow at which point most folks just hit the kill button.
Author:  numbutt1 [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
So it sounds like the 2005 is in the lead. So I guess my question is if this ESP is what I read about being applied brakes by the computer. Im just imagining being in some mud slop or snow and haveing this thing trying to break for me? I know on road or with folks that don't have the right driving experience it has its uses. But for me its nice to know if I want to be the one controlling the car I can. I also read that with the button it actually just "retards" the ESP that it still kinda works? true?
Author:  irollgen4s [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
basically its just a stupid useless system that is a hindrance more often then a boost. offroad, it can help in rare situations, but after this past trip, all it really does is stop wheel spin when your trying to have fun in some slippery mud(even with the button pressed) and wear out your brakes faster. go for an 05 or disable the 06's with lockers IMO
Author:  boilermaker2 [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
The 2005 does not have ESP which is why I bough a late model '05 instead of an '06 (already on the lot). My '05 is "old school" (your words) with a Trac-lok limited slip rear-end. The small gripe I have is that you do need special oil and additive to maintain this setup. The '06 went with ESP to help it with rollover mitigation. This is one of the very few difference between an '05 and '06 KJ CRD.
Boilermaker2
Author:  ChesterCRD [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
I kind of like the ESP. I don't think I need it, but it's nice to have at times. I can confirm that my CRD will do donuts on snow with it turned off. It will disable cruise control when a wheel slips at highway speed (a clue you should consider lowering speed anyway). In my experience it does a decent job on loose surfaces. I climbed a 900 foot frozen dirt driveway with 8 inches of virgin snow on it with the ESP going on and off the whole way. It felt kind of like posi in that the back would swing a little side to side and sounded like a small bell on each side when the brake grabbed. It didn't bother me much and the Jeep made it up to to top. The only 4WD to make it up that day actually.
Author:  papaindigo [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
I don't have ESP but my son, stoutdog, does. I don't object to ESP anymore than I object to anti-lock brakes which I don't particularly like simply because my braking in a skid reflexes are locked into a pre-anti-lock brake mode (pump and steer). Stoutdog has not reported any noticable problems with ESP in snow/ice in N. Arizona but that's on hwys not offroad and not particularly curvey hwys. As noted some have reported ESP being overly "helpful" occasionally. However, I would not consider the presence or absence of ESP to be a deal breaker; translation if you get a really good deal on a low mileage 2006 better jump on it; that's why I don't have it and stoutdog does (2 different good deals).

The 2006 owner's manual, see link on Sir Sam's NOOB guide, is a bit fuzzy but it does say 1) ESP is engaged upon startup regardless of its status before startup; 2) ESP can be partially switched off and the manual says how; 3) the manual implies that it can be turned completely off but does not say how (does anyone know? - I'd ask stoutdog but he is not currently in the immediate vicinity of his vehicle). I suspect ESP can be disabled but don't know if doing so would throw any codes and frankly if I had ESP I probably wouldn't bother; relying instead on switching it off on the rare times I don't want to be "helped" as under normal circumstances it doesn't "do" anything.
Author:  boilermaker2 [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
One more thing, your other question. You CAN turn off the TC and this keeps it from going into 5th and possibly 4th (don't care, just know that you are cranking some serious RPM's for a diesel if you're determined to go over 55). I use this primarily for slow towing on rough roads w/ grades, stop/start etc. Flat and black and usually go ahead and switch to TC. I think that the '05/'06 model transmissions except for one notable rolling production change (search F37); therefore they should both have the TC lock-out/Tow button on the shifter.

GDE has modified the TC Module to do something different and worth the $ most likely if you really do tow alot.

B2
Author:  Ajamant [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
Someone please correct if I'm wrong but there are two systems at play: ESP and Roll stability Protection. There is a small button on top of the steering wheel column to disable the ESP. However you can never turn off the Roll Stability Protection.

I have had many occasions that the ESP has keep me on track and on the road while on snow and ice. While driving freeway speeds and loosing traction it can be a lifesaver, and yes I'm a very good driver.

I have no issues doing donuts, or off roading concerning these systems.
Author:  irollgen4s [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
all i know is the brake lock differential (BLD) is what stops me from successfully sliding around on various surfaces. It makes a horrible groaning noise, slows down and then kicks me straight. Just wish i had zero traction control/abs/any of that stuff. though just TC by itself isnt horrible, i just hate the BLD myself.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
To the original poster. If your in mud your most likely in "LOW" range and the traction control is automatically turned off in low range :JEEPIN:

I think it's a worth while feature :BANANA:

And if your going to look for a jeep 5 or 6 years old concern over traction control should be down on your list way below condition, miles, color, equiptment and price.
And they both have the ABS :goink:
Author:  boilermaker2 [ Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
Joe is right. I must not have been clear (or people are reading too much into some of this). 100k maintenance, condition, etc is much more important.

The Trac-lok was not offered in 2006 due to it being a Mechanical Anti-slip whereas in 2006 traction control was done with brake/wheel slip monitoring in 2006. Traction control with brakes was also tied to the rollover protection. Having the rollover mitigation feature AND the Trac-Lok on the same vehicle would have been self-defeated with two different systems (electric vs mechanical) trying to destroy each other in some manuevers. (Think about it, if you had rear axle locked out and the ABS telling telling the LHS (inside of the curve) brakes to grip to prevent a rollover, the end result would not be good). Hope this makes sense, the Trac-Lok and RPS are not compatible.

B2
Author:  stoutdog [ Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
papaindigo wrote:
I don't have ESP but my son, stoutdog, does. I don't object to ESP anymore than I object to anti-lock brakes which I don't particularly like simply because my braking in a skid reflexes are locked into a pre-anti-lock brake mode (pump and steer). Stoutdog has not reported any noticable problems with ESP in snow/ice in N. Arizona but that's on hwys not offroad and not particularly curvey hwys. As noted some have reported ESP being overly "helpful" occasionally. However, I would not consider the presence or absence of ESP to be a deal breaker; translation if you get a really good deal on a low mileage 2006 better jump on it; that's why I don't have it and stoutdog does (2 different good deals).

For the record, I've only ever seen the ESP come on once, and that was on a slightly damp road in Phoenix of all places. I drove the Jeep pretty hard on snowy/icy roads in northern AZ up around the canyon for a couple of winters and the ESP left me alone.
Author:  numbutt1 [ Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
Yesterday I went out to "test drive" the 2005 we have at work and am now maybe more confused it seems some info is conflicted. This was a diesel 2005 not limited plain jane. No where on it could I find a esp button over ride. There is nothing on the stearing column and the button on the shifter is for the OD shut off. So whats the deal? 2006 has a button? Maybe a limited vs Sport package difference? what do yall think
Author:  irollgen4s [ Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
You must have misunderstood. 05's have NO esp, traction control, etc. ONLY 06's do. there is no limited/sport segregation concerning esp.
Author:  numbutt1 [ Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
numbutt1 wrote:
Yesterday I went out to "test drive" the 2005 we have at work and am now maybe more confused it seems some info is conflicted. This was a diesel 2005 not limited plain jane. No where on it could I find a esp button over ride. There is nothing on the stearing column and the button on the shifter is for the OD shut off. So whats the deal? 2006 has a button? Maybe a limited vs Sport package difference? what do yall think

So are you calling the brakes locking on a slipping wheel something differnent? Im calling that tc...and Ive heard from folks with 2005s that say they will break if a tire slips...? Not true?
Author:  irollgen4s [ Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
some 05's came with a LSD(limited slip differential) in the rear, in the 06's they enabled traction control that required an open differential, because traction control(esp) with a locker is asking for trouble. In order to counter this they enabled BLD, or brake lock differentials. Which is what stops the wheel with less traction to stop spinning and tries to transfer the power to the opposite wheel.

05's- LSD
06's-ESP+BLD

i still personally HATE BLD. it can help on some climbs and when the kj three wheels, but my rear brake pads are groaning all the time now due to it wearing them out prematurely from offroading.
Author:  numbutt1 [ Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
ok thats more clear then. And I actually got to thinking about it as yesterday I rompt the gas in some gravel and the hind end got all sorts of squirly. Talking to a guy who has a gasser liberty he said if it spun the tires and got squirly then the BLD deffinately wasnt in effect as its totally noticable so an 05 it shall be
Author:  irollgen4s [ Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
I notice the BLD if i try and drift/slide/donut, i hear a loud groaning noise, then it slide stops... kind of annoying in my book, but thats because i love little traction :lol:
Author:  boilermaker2 [ Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 or 2006???
numbutt1 wrote:
ok thats more clear then. And I actually got to thinking about it as yesterday I rompt the gas in some gravel and the hind end got all sorts of squirly. Talking to a guy who has a gasser liberty he said if it spun the tires and got squirly then the BLD deffinately wasnt in effect as its totally noticable so an 05 it shall be


On ice or packed snow, that rear end will come around fast. If the front is pushing snow, it will come around too at any speed. That is why the Full Time FWD option (so that you can run it on wet and dry pavement) is nice in our setup, especially an '05 with no ESP/BLD/BFF/BFE..... :oops:

Good luck on your purchase, review the Noob Guide and download Sam's service manual.
B2
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