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| Blown Turbo? Next steps...? http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63024 |
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| Author: | bluecollarguy [ Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
First off great site full of helpful info and well I've barely posted, I've lurked on this site for longer than I've owned the CRD. Hopefully you guys can give me some pointers on this new headache. So driving to work this morning on the highway i heard a soft pop out of nowhere from the engine bay and assumed a "hose had blown" with first thought being "why didn't i get those Samco hoses!" then a loss of power and then white smoke starts coming from the exhaust. I limped off the highway with little power (i was close to the exit) and pulled to a side street just billowing white smoke at this point and turned her off. I didn't hear anything abnormal from the engine bay at any time other than that pop. I expected to see a mess under the hood but I didn't see any oil, fluid or anything abnormal, no loose hoses or anything. From my street view underside the engine there was nothing visible either. What was visible was the large amount of oil leaking from the exhaust clamp right before the muffler and some dripping from the tailpipe. The rear of the vehicle did have oil splatter. As i waited to get the vehicle flat bed towed home, a large amount of oil eventually pooled at that clamp point and when i checked the motor at home there was nothing showing. Based on what I've read here i'm assuming it's a blown turbo. And i'm trying to figure out my next steps. I'm guessing i need to pull the unit to verify failure, how hard is that? Also is there anything i can do to verify the integrity of the motor, I'm horrified that she was spinning with oil draining that fast. Does anything else need to come off, get cleaned, etc? And last does anyone have some good walk thru/advice on replacing this properly from start to finish (it'd be nice to know any extra parts needed as well when i buy the replacement around $1200 from what I've seen)? I'm not aware of any good CRD diesel/turbo mechanics in Denver or close by (I've never really had to look) so i expect to be doing this myself. I know a few of you have done this a few times sadly. Wish i had the extra dough for the GDE upgrade! Thanks in advance- -Benjamin |
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| Author: | papaindigo [ Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
Suggest you PM geordi for blown turbo symptoms and replacement tips and PM or email Sir Sam as he is just south of you in the C. Springs area. |
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| Author: | Hoosier CRD [ Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
When replacing the turbo, I strongly suggest that you 1) replace the oil supply tube, banjo bolt and two(2) copper washers. All parts are available through Mopar. 2) I suggest that you change the oil so that the new turbo will have fresh oil running through it upon start-up. 3) Allow the engine to run for 5-10 minutes before driving to allow the turbo to get up to temp and get used to being in service. FWIW, Hoosier CRD |
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| Author: | bluecollarguy [ Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
Thanks for the replies, i'll be sure to shoot Geordi and Sir Sam a PM and see what info they can offer and see what else pops up in this thread. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
I feel sick for you Ben... You most certainly have a killed turbo, the question now is how badly did it go. I don't disagree in general about replacing the tube / banjo / washers, but at the same time... If they aren't plugged up, I'm not convinced that they are bad. You might be able to source a turbo direct from Garrett by finding your local Diesel Injection Service shop, who hopefully is an ADS (I think it means Association of Diesel Service) member. Many of these places are also turbo shops, but they tend not to be the remove-and-replace kind of shop. You bring them the component, they fix. But in the case of these turbos, there isn't any fix, its either replace with new... Or replace with new. The advantage to contacting one of those shops is a retail price of $1080 or so, saving you some bucks. Pulling the turbo... Ooh, bad memories. Ok, here's what I can remember. You will need a 10mm wrench / socket, 1/2" or 13mm (or both) socket AND wrench, and probably a longer wrench and mallet to break the nuts loose on the turbo. Got the blue nitrile gloves? Good, you will need a box of them, plan to shred at least 3-4 pairs in this job, its a real bugger. Start by pulling the airbox connectors (be gentle!) and the airbox out of the engine. The airbox-to-turbo hose is probably rotted at the turbo end if you haven't done an EHM - $55 dealer only part, and it will need to be ordered. Don't ever reconnect that CCV, or you will be buying that hose again. Pull the turbo-to-intercooler hose, check it all over to see if it is soft or eaten through. Unbolt the coolant tank from the firewall, on mine there was enough room to push it out of the way without disconnecting anything from it, or draining any coolant. Don't mess with something if you don't have to, right? Now comes the fun - The heat shield has 3 bolts. These will be the easiest of the day. 13mm / 1/2 inch. The exhaust clamp on the turbo is 10mm, you will need to unlock it a lot before it will slide over the turbo's flange... And usually right down the downpipe to the cat. oops. Push the downpipe out of the way, and climb on top of the engine. Get comfy (not really) you will be here for a while. The two bolts to the rear of the engine are fairly easy to get to, 1/2 inch. This is where the longer wrench will come in handy - You won't have enough space OR the right angle to use a breaking lever. Put the wrench any way you can get it to fit with the handle end close to horizontal or pointing up and toward the firewall. Use the longer wrench and hit it with the mallet to break them free - It will take a lot.The heat cycling on those is immense. The next thing you need to pull will be the oil return line - This is the part that sucks. I think it is another 10mm bolt, but there are TWO of the damnn things under there, and crazy hard to get to. Conveniently, everything under there will be juicy with fresh oil, so forget about finger traction when they are finally loosened.The inner one (toward the engine) is behind the non-flexible pipe. Convenient, hmm? The bottom of this pipe just shoves into a rubber grommet in the side of the engine - Nothing holds it there. Such a great design. Might as well pull the banjo bolt from the top too, there is a copper washer above and below the center section. Don't forget that when reinstalling it, it will be messy. Don't ask how I know that. Now the real fun. The other two bolts are BURIED in between the two sections of the turbo housing. This is where the socket comes in, you can't reach the upper one without it. Use the bigger wrench on the socket wrench handle to make a breaking bar to pop these two. Congratulations, the turbo is loose. Pull it out, marvel at what a pain in the arse this job is... And plan on how drunk you will get after putting the new one back in by reversing the process. Now... Restarting your engine. I let mine idle for 20 minutes after the first time I lost a turbo, and I had had a small ticking noise at that point that went away. 10 miles later on the test drive, my engine went away too. So if it makes any noises that you haven't heard before after you have filled it back up completely... SHUT IT OFF AND DO NOT DRIVE IT. What may be damaged - The crank bearings on the bottoms of the rods, particularly the #1 and #2 cylinders. Depending on how low on oil it got, you may be fine... You might not. But rebuilding the bottom end of the engine is going to be cheaper than replacing the entire engine. Why does this happen to us? Bad design choices by Chrysler, possibly bad oil or not changed often enough by the owner, possibly bad treatment by owners in shutting it down hot, and frankly... A turbo that is not up to the task of our vehicle, it needs to be larger / stronger. I'm not saying anything specific about you as an owner, b/c I ***KNOW*** how to treat these turbos to keep them safe... And I've had one fall apart on me (bearing failure) since I replaced the engine, and a second has had a problem since I bought it new, and is probably heading for destruction rapidly too. These just suck on our Jeeps. |
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| Author: | painemann [ Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
Sorry to hear about the turbo! After reading geordi's last post, I think I'm going to start saving for the GDE turbo! I hope Keith keeps building them! Also, my girl friend drives my CRD most of the time, I really want to get an oil pressure gauge in the thing as soon as possible. Where/how the heck can I put the sending unit? I think I asked this in the past with out any luck, any ideas? |
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| Author: | warp2diesel [ Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
Round up a 1/8" NPT steel nipple and a 1/8" NPT Brass T. Remove your oil pressure switch back by the filter and plumb in the second sending unit. Easy. That is where I get the oil supply for my centrifuge and my oil pressure switch. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
No no no no no no no. Putting a pressure gauge at the BOTTOM of the engine next to the outlet of the filter is where Chrysler chose to put their idiot light sensor. When my engine blew a HOLE in the oil pan (from the #1 rod inverting) that idiot light didn't even come on! I shut the engine off BEFORE that light warned me a problem had happened! Same for when the first turbo failed catastrophically, and pumped a full gallon into the exhaust in less than 30 seconds. No idiot light. As long as there is enough oil in the filter to be pressurized by the pump pushing against it into the filter, that light won't come on. Your engine will be sending pistons through the hood, but you must have oil b/c that light isn't on, right? NO. The proper location is on the TOP of the engine, in the main oil gallery. According to the parts explosion, where the turbo oil feed line connects is the main gallery, with THREE PLUGS in alternate locations to the existing oil supply line. Any of these plugs will be a GREAT place to locate the sensor... I just haven't had time to take my engine apart a bit (or the money for the gauge) to install one there and take pictures of the install. This would seem to be the simplest place to locate the sensor, and possibly even use another of those plugged ports for an oil centrifuge feed. That is another project I have in mind for someday. |
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| Author: | bluecollarguy [ Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
Better reply than i could have hoped for, thanks geordi- now i just have to cross my fingers on that start up that i don't hear any unexpected noises. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this thread for comments though as i start rounding up what i need - reading through that removal process has me hoping someone mentions a good CRD friendly shop in town! |
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| Author: | onthehunt [ Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
Make sure to prelube the new turbo before installing and starting it. |
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| Author: | painemann [ Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
geordi wrote: NO. The proper location is on the TOP of the engine, in the main oil gallery. According to the parts explosion, where the turbo oil feed line connects is the main gallery, with THREE PLUGS in alternate locations to the existing oil supply line. Any of these plugs will be a GREAT place to locate the sensor... I just haven't had time to take my engine apart a bit (or the money for the gauge) to install one there and take pictures of the install. This would seem to be the simplest place to locate the sensor, and possibly even use another of those plugged ports for an oil centrifuge feed. That is another project I have in mind for someday. well not that I have butt loads of money right now either, I would like to try this. If you can explain more on your idea of where to put it I could give it a try. thanks. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
I was kinda hoping to be able to dig around on my own engine and take pictures for everyone, b/c I don't really have a great idea of the location either. All I have is information from Keith and from the parts explosion images from the parts fiche files. Basically, if you root around on the passenger side of the engine, follow the turbo's own feed line to where it joins the engine - This should be the third of four possible ports that line could plug into - Two in front of it, one behind, and those three other options are indicated as having plugs in them. I don't know what the plugs look like, but they are probably hex-key socket cap with an o-ring. (Total guess) I also have no idea what size threads are in those, but the parts explosion makes it look like these plugs open into the main oil gallery at the top of the engine, and this is where all the pressurized oil is distributed from - to the cylinders as well as to the turbo and rod bearings. When I lost my turbo and it started leaking badly, the rod bearings starved for oil QUICK - most likely b/c this gallery no longer had enough pressure in it, b/c of the gaping hole where the turbo seal used to be. A gauge point up there might have told me about it. |
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| Author: | papaindigo [ Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
This has been a topic of a bit of discussion between keith at GDE (who mentioned to me that these 3 unused plugs existed in the oil gallery when I asked him about a better oil pressure sending unit location), geordi, and myself. geordi and I are pretty sure the referenced plugs and washers (#s 13 and 15) are those seen in 2.8L-720 and 710 of the 2005 and 2006 parts manuals respectively. However, the parts manual descriptions are clearly wrong and there is even mention of an oil pressure transducer which one could take to mean that at one time a transducer was considered for placement in this area (my guess anyway). These are not visible from the top of the engine compartment at least not without removing stuff. I suspect, but cannot be sure, that the rear plug may be accessible from under the vehicle between the turbo and the exhaust but whether it's accessible enough to remove and replace with a sending unit and fitting I don't have a clue. Clearly that rear plug would be accessible during a turbo replacement as the turbo oil pressure is supplied, as nearly as I can tell from the parts manual, from the next fitting point toward the front of the engine. |
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| Author: | drtydzel [ Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
While you are stuck replacing why not upgrade to the GDE Turbo kit while you have it all apart anyways |
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| Author: | geordi [ Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
Two reasons: They are not available currently (Keith is in process on a new batch that will be available sometime in November / December hopefully) and the big reason for us all: $$$$$$$$$$. Not enough of it laying around. |
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| Author: | EAB [ Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Blown Turbo? Next steps...? |
The first pic is from the passenger side of the motor over the motor mount. The second pic is from the rear passenger side of the same plug. The other unused plug is behind the cooler in the first pic. Neither one looks 'easy' to get to. P.S. No love for the rebuild kit?   
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