Slow Transmission Engagement at Cold Start

SmokinJoe · **Posted:** Mon May 11, 2009 9:17 pm

I think I've seen a post or 2 on this subject before, but was wondering how many of you have experienced problems with your transmission being slow to engage at a cold start. I've started experiencing this the last several weeks, and it usually takes 30 seconds or so to get things going. Has this been common to alot of CRD's? I saw where there was a TSB on this, so I guess its tom the shop I go while I've got some warranty left.

FormerlyBankNote4x4 · **Posted:** Mon May 11, 2009 11:33 pm

I think it is an eary sign of TC failure. If you haven't gotten the f37 performed by the dealer then stay away and keep your tcm as it should be. I'd go with the billet aftermarket option that seems to be working well for many. Suncoast. Otherwise you get another crappy plastic one and a reduced torque output via the non reversable f37 tcm flash.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue May 12, 2009 12:35 am

It has nothing to do with the torque converter failing. It is caused by TF draining back into the pan through the cooler return filter. www.wjjeeps.com/tsb/tsb_wj_2101505.pdf

CRDMiller · **Posted:** Tue May 12, 2009 12:53 am

+1 to nursecosmo

That said,

Check your freeking fluid level, and do it properly. Hopefully (well, not really, right?) your 2-3 qt low

Also, anti drainback in the spin on filter, did you replace your filters with the wrong type?

And, do you experience stalling as you come to a stop on an incline? It does not have to be a stall, but a near stall or stumbling. Inclines can worsen the situation, as can cold weather (the fluid takes up less volume when cold), check your fluid level! It takes pressure for the vb to direct the flow of ATF to lock and unlock the tc, shift gearsets, etc. This is a flow problem. If you don't have enough fluid the pump cant produce pressure.

If all else fails it could be tc issues, but i would rank it as (with the included information)

1. ATF level
2. Anti Drainback
3. VB
4. TC

Check the fluid level!

nescosmo · **Joined:** Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:17 pm **Posts:** 202

My tranny since new never could go after a cold start I have to wait afew seconds before it engage. I replaced the TC with the Suncoast and install a large pan that take about 2 to 3 more quarts of fluid, and still do the same thing. If I go back from the garage without waiting the tranny sleap go and when I stoped it, give me a bang and stall. So to avoid all of that I wait afew second and then go and allways the tranny works fine.

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2009 1:05 pm

The original 45\545RFE cooler return filters had an anti-drainback check-valve, intended to prevent that delay - DCJ then spec'ed a second-source oem, whose filters did not have the adb valve, caused a lot of warranty problems because the p\n's were the same - DCJ then pulled all the filters from stock, got new corrected filters with new p\n, problems solved - however, those original filters can be found on eBay at seemingly good prices, compared to DCJ - I've emailed several vendors reguarding those defective filters, some have pulled the offending culprits, some have not - the orig filter is stamped 49xxxxx, the new filter is 5xxxxxxx - caveat emptor

JcGilmour · **Posted:** Sun May 15, 2011 11:37 pm

I have experienced this problem often. I replaced the supposedly defective filters with the supposedly correct ones. This problem is clearly a loss of prim in the trans pump. By experimenting I believe I have proved this loss of prime theory. For those of you that experience this problem, Try always after starting and before you attempt to engage the trans, bring the engine RPM up to 2k for 3 or 4 seconds. Drop back to idle and drive normally. If this cures the problem completely, then the problem is caused by a pump loss of prime. This is not new. Some Chrysler vehicles have exhibited this problem since the 70's. My "guess" is that Chrysler has been too conservative with reservoir level. IF the pump is within tolerance, and it may not be with +100km or 60k miles. It should prime almost instantly upon startup. The higher the pump has to lift fluid with air in the suction side, the longer and harder it is. I am about to raise the hot fluid level in my R45 to ~1/2L above the hot full mark. My guess is that this will reduce or cure the problem.
If the silly transmission was manufactured correctly, employing a working check valve in the pump pickup, we would have never see this problem. Chrysler never could build a decent trans.

Waiting for the flames.

John

Wobbly · **Posted:** Mon May 16, 2011 1:16 am

SmokinJoe wrote:

I think I've seen a post or 2 on this subject before, but was wondering how many of you have experienced problems with your transmission being slow to engage at a cold start. I've started experiencing this the last several weeks, and it usually takes 30 seconds or so to get things going. Has this been common to alot of CRD's? I saw where there was a TSB on this, so I guess its tom the shop I go while I've got some warranty left.

Any codes thrown? I had the two codes mentioned in the TSB, but my VIN was not eligible for the recall. Supposedly the transmission didn't have the defective spin on filter. After paying the $100 deductible on my powertrain warranty, the dealer recommended that the filters and fluid be changed. The factory manual describes detailed transmission testing procedures which require special equipment. The dealer service tech didn't do any of the tests, and just guessed that new filters would solve the problem. I replaced the filters myself. That seemed to solve the problem, and the codes cleared after 40 cold start cycles.
That was a number of months ago. Yesterday I noticed that the rig once again started rolling backwards down the hill after a cold start with the transmission in Drive. After 15 or 20 seconds the transmission engaged.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon May 16, 2011 9:23 am

Have quality transmission filters installed (like Wix) and avoid any of the crap that might be reboxed. Chrysler had a bunch of junk filters they used that where the anti drain back valve failed and caused the problem described.
Some of the junk filters were sold through other sources and are still showing up.
One jerk did some dumpster diving and sold some of the Junk on eBay until GMCTD caught him.
Also use the ATF+4, not any universal fluids or snake oil fixes.

JcGilmour · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 10:10 am

I replaced the filters with the supposed correct ones, about a year ago. The problem vanished for about six months and has been reoccurring often since. Maybe I will see if I can find some Wix filters and go at it again. A very messy job.

To anyone else reading this thread: Codes logged regarding this problem:
The ECM monitors trans input/output shaft speeds. When the pump looses prime and you attempt to move the vehicle, the ECM notices the transmission slipping because of unexpected input/output RPM differences and throws codes. On top of this if you persist without shifting back into neutral for a few seconds to clear the air from the fluid path, you may notice very strange trans performance with possible damage.
If you engage a gear and the vehicle doesn't respond, shift into neutral, bring the RPM up to 2k for a few seconds and drive normally.

Hi to all,
John

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 1:53 pm

This is not a new problem to Chrysler vehicles. We had it as far back as a 1st gen Plymoth Voyager 4 banger. The cause is slightly different over the years but it all boils down to fluid drain back from the TC to the tranny sump. Depending on the cause the "fix" either takes and you don't have the problem again or it doesn't completely take and the problem creeps back. In the case of the 545RFE transmission in the CRD the cause is related to filters. If you get the good filter it should fix the problem but of course any check valve can stick. Flman's check valve mod, posted on the forum, is another fix that may be less subject to failure.

I've lived with the problem for a while by holding engine rpm at ca. 1500 for 30 seconds or so at crankup with the tranny in neutral before backing out of the driveway. For some reason the problem seems less apparent in reverse so when I shift to drive I'm careful to make sure the tranny engages before driving off; if not give it a bit more time in neutral. For me at least the problem is sporadic and only after overnight or a work day's worth of time parked. If the tranny does not engage in drive DO NOT push it as I can almost guarantee a hard shift from neutral to first; a drive of about 100'; a really unnerving tranny/engine shudder and stall; restart is fine but commonly with a CEL that goes away after about 3 start cycles. The shudder/stall cannot be good for the system and I've only experienced it 2-3 times before figuring out the work around. Of course I could service my tranny but have not done so yet, soon though.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 3:31 pm

I've got a new set of filters and some ATF+4 ready for install. I got the filters from Advance Auto Parts.
Hopefully the spin on filter has the correct check valve. I've got my fingers crossed.

I've also got the transgo shift kit. Figured while I've got the pan dropped may as well do it too.

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 10:42 pm

I hope you have 8 qts of tranny fluid, 9 qts if you take the valve body out.

SmokinJoe · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 9:11 pm

I've had this problem since before the origional post. It is a daily issue during the hotter months for sure, and frequently during cooler weather. Trips to the dealership provided no results, as they say they could never duplicate the symptoms. The last visit I made to the dealership for this issue only had the service writer produce a document from Chrysler basically saying this was considered a "normal" condition and was not detrimental to tranny operation.
Can you believe that?? ....Normal???? I told him this is the first vehicle I've ever owned with this "normal" condition.....

Transmission Fluid and filter change produced no results....

Guess I could try Wix filters like Warp said...but I'm more inclined to go with a GDE Tune and "Fix" the problem that way. Tranny still has old TC in it. I

I've got a CEL anyway...EGR

Never have had the tranny throw a CEL...

JcGilmour · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 11:14 pm

The GDE Tune will not fix the problem. The slow-to-engage problem is a loss of prime in the trans pump that supplies all hydraulic pressure for trans operation. You can't engage a clutch pack with no fluid pressure.

As far as the dealer telling you it is considered normal - there is only one word - idiot. I can't imagine what good it does the ailing front pump to sit there spinning dry for several seconds at startup.

Earlier in this thread someone (too lazy to look up who) mentioned a fix employing a inline check valve from Graingers. This valve is mounted the the return line from the trans (radiator) cooler and allows normal return flow but blocks the opposite, assumed that happens when the vehicle sits and the internal filter check valve fails to do its job. While I am not convinced as to how this actually gets the job done, I talked with the inventor "filbin?" and he claims that this cured the problem and he has years on the fix. It is referenced in this thread so if you want to give it a try it is by far the easiest fix I can think of as it does not require pulling the trans pan and making a mess. If you don't like it you can simply splice the line back together with a compression fitting. I am going to give this a try myself when I have an hour and will report here the results.

P.S. you will LOVE your ECO Tune. I do.

John

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 9:16 am

X2 and I'd be more colorful :furious:

than idiot, the "L" word comes to mind along with pants on fire, given that there is a Jeep TSB (21-007-06 APR 06) on this problem for both 05 & 06 model year KJs with an automatic transmissions. FYI flman's mode to the return line is fully described at viewtopic.php?f=98&t=55110

dkenny · **Posted:** Fri May 20, 2011 5:54 pm

I can add that its not just the Libby that does this...!!!!!

I have a 99 Ram with a 47re..guess what..lately its got the same symptoms..first thing in the morning ONLY..
now if I let the truck idle in neutral for while I'm putting on my seatbelt..than go..all is good.

I wife was having the same problem, in the jeep, so I ask her to try the same solution..and it works..

I guess sometime in the future I be adding flman's check valve solution to both.

I do need to check the levels in both. its just a pain to check, add some, than wait a day to check again. a problem with using the fill and check in the same tube.

-dkenny

JcGilmour · **Posted:** Fri May 20, 2011 10:22 pm

I have never seen a transmission dipstick that worked so poorly as the Jeep's. Your description of adding some fluid and waiting a day to check is right on. I worked as a GM mechanic for years. None of the GM transmissions were problematic to check this vehicle. No pump prime loss problems either.

I priced the Grainger check valve and my cheap alarm went ($30!)off so I am hunting down a under $15 one; I hope.

J

JcGilmour · **Posted:** Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:54 am

I did the check valve mod as described, using the specified parts. No change. The POS still requires a few seconds of 1500-2k rpm before shifting into drive or reverse.
I am also noticing what I am guessing is a delayed down shift when pulling away from a light - Stop at a light, take your foot off the brake and let the vehicle roll ahead and clunk. Like somebody touched the rear bumper.

Why didn't they put standard transmissions in thees.

J

JcGilmour · **Posted:** Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:54 am

I did the check valve mod as described, using the specified parts. No change. The POS still requires a few seconds of 1500-2k rpm before shifting into drive or reverse.
I am also noticing what I am guessing is a delayed down shift when pulling away from a light - Stop at a light, take your foot off the brake and let the vehicle roll ahead and clunk. Like somebody touched the rear bumper.

Why didn't they put standard transmissions in thees.

J

Slow Transmission Engagement at Cold Start

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