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Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=64125		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  geordi [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:04 am ]
Post subject:  Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
Hello children! Today's show is sponsored by the word SUCK. Everything that can suck... Has today.

I'll spare everyone the rest of my day, but the crowning glory happened this morning and cost me most of the afternoon. I was towing my CRD 4-down (wheels on the road) like it has been before, and is designed to do behind an RV or other vehicle.

Transfer case in neutral, transmission in neutral. Key in the 'mid position' where nothing is powered, but the wheel is unlocked. All seemed normal as it has been before.

Then I start noticing what looks like smoke behind me (it was very wet / misty so it was hard to be sure) after about 40 miles or so of towing. Just as I'm working to get to the side of the road, I'm flagged by a trucker who pointed at the jeep behind the old rental truck I was driving. I thought the smoke might have been the truck at 87k miles. Uh-Oh...

Get out and am greeted with the stench of burning fluid and what smelled like clutch. Since I don't have a manual, I know I shouldn't EVER be smelling clutch. The oil filter looks like it was coated on the outside with something black, (oil?) but the engine is still at the same level it was before. Not oil then. Check the trans fluid, it seems almost clear? Also wasn't much on the dipstick. Hmm.

Tried to start the engine, it ran OK, but was instantly inundated with a MASSIVE thick choking cloud of white smoke, and the stench of cooked fluids. Uh-oh again. Shut the engine off after only about 3 seconds of operation. Verified that the transmission and transfer case levers were where I had set them... They were. HOWEVER - When pushing on the transfer case handle to put it back to 2wd from neutral... There wasn't anything there to push against. Like the handle was "floppy" but still held basically in position. Couldn't get it to move to the 4-lo position either. Felt like that way didn't exist.

Outside underneath, was a sensor hanging about even with the driver's footwell, next to the transfer case. This sensor has a plastic housing and mounting point that was BADLY melted, like it melted OFF from wherever it was supposed to be.

Its at the Jacksonville Jeep dealer now... But WTF happened? Thoughts? Could the transfer case somehow have come apart from the handle and gotten into gear without the handle moving?

I don't have any information yet about what is damaged... But I will be requesting inspection / retention of all parts to try and get pics of the postmortem on this. I'm really getting tired of living my life as a warning to others, especially when I don't do anything stupid or beyond the design capabilities of my vehicle.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
1st you flat towed it wrong.

T-case in "N" and trans in "P" only,stated right in the owners manual.Even with the t-case in "N" the internals will spin due to centrifugal force and if the trans is in "N" also it will start to turn the trans internals which leads to bad things.
Author:  racertracer [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
Jim,

Sorry to hear and hoping for the best.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
tjkj2002 wrote:
1st you flat towed it wrong.

T-case in "N" and trans in "P" only,stated right in the owners manual.Even with the t-case in "N" the internals will spin due to centrifugal force and if the trans is in "N" also it will start to turn the transinternals which leads to bad things.
/


Thanks TJ for posting that, you saved me the time verifying what I remember reading in my owner's manual :SOMBRERO:
Author:  DOC4444 [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
How can you flat tow in "Park"?

DOC
Author:  Joe Romas [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
DOC4444 wrote:
How can you flat tow in "Park"?

DOC

Read the manual :ROTFL:

You have the transfer case in NEUTRAL :JEEPIN:
Author:  DOC4444 [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
So if the transfer case being in neutral totally disconnects the trans, why does it matter what position the trans gear selector is in?

DOC
Author:  OldSkull [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
99% don't read the manuel of anything they bought ...This said what you will do if this KJ was a 2x4? Exactly what Gordi have done!

All kind of animal deserved different caution, AWD and 4x4 exist in so many variation It's easy to made a mistake...Sorry Gordi you lack of knowledge about towing your rig will cost you primium and will served others here again....Life can be a bi*** sometime... :roll:

Hope you get some luck, not funny to deal with such a PITA just before Chrismast... :cry:
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
DOC4444 wrote:
So if the transfer case being in neutral totally disconnects the trans, why does it matter what position the trans gear selector is in?

DOC

Having the trans in "P" keeps the internals from spinning without fluid pressure which does major damage.If the trans internals are left to spin without fluid pressure things heat up real fast with no way of cooling as the TC and pump are not turning.

The 545RFE trans is not a cheap one,niether is the 242 and sadly only a 242 for a KJ will work in a KJ.Expect about $5000+ for a repair bill,realistically I'd say at least $7000.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
OldSkull wrote:
99% don't read the manuel of anything they bought ...This said what you will do if this KJ was a 2x4? Exactly what Gordi have done!

All kind of animal deserved different caution, AWD and 4x4 exist in so many variation It's easy to made a mistake...Sorry Gordi you lack of knowledge about towing your rig will cost you primium and will served others here again....Life can be a bi*** sometime... :roll:

Hope you get some luck, not funny to deal with such a PITA just before Chrismast... :cry:


If it was a 2x4 it would have needed the drive shaft pulled or the vehicle put on a 4 wheel dolly.

To tow: transfer case in neutral, trans in park.
Author:  flash7210 [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
I once saw an Audi Quattro being towed on a dolly behind an RV.
That Audi was sure making a heck of a lot of noise. :shock:

$5000 for repair seems like an awful lot even for this transmission.
How much is a new set of clutch packs and o-rings?

I'll bet if you remove the tranny yourself and bring it to a shop you could
get it done for under $1000.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
flash7210 wrote:
I once saw an Audi Quattro being towed on a dolly behind an RV.
That Audi was sure making a heck of a lot of noise. :shock:

$5000 for repair seems like an awful lot even for this transmission.
How much is a new set of clutch packs and o-rings?

I'll bet if you remove the tranny yourself and bring it to a shop you could
get it done for under $1000.

The average rebuild cost for a 545RFE is about $2800 and that's just if it needs clutches.If any hard parts are damaged the cost goes up alot after that and when severely overheated hard parts are most likely needed.The days of a $400 rebuild for a auto trans ended about 20 years ago when they started adding electronics to the trans.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
TJKJ,

I got that when you said it the first time, but I still don't understand how it works. So the output shaft of the trans is locked when in "Park" THROUGH the transfer case (i.e. when NOT in neutral)? When the transfer case is placed in "neutral", and the trans is in neutral, what causes the trans internals to spin when the driveshaft is being turned as opposed to when the trans is in "Park"?

Appreciate being educated as to this.

DOC
Author:  Sir Sam [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
DOC4444 wrote:
TJKJ,

I got that when you said it the first time, but I still don't understand how it works. So the output shaft of the trans is locked when in "Park" THROUGH the transfer case (i.e. when NOT in neutral)? When the transfer case is placed in "neutral", and the trans is in neutral, what causes the trans internals to spin when the driveshaft is being turned as opposed to when the trans is in "Park"?

Appreciate being educated as to this.

DOC


IIRC its fluid coupling.(kinda like when a torque converter is not in lockup)
Author:  flash7210 [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
Right,

Because the drive shafts are spinning and connected to the output shafts of the transfer case, those
shafts are spinning and chrurning the fluid in the tranfer case. Even though in neutral, that churning
fluid motion is transfered to the non-connected shafts, causing them to turn also.
It doesnt take a lot of force to get those parts moving. Over short distances and at low speeds
everything should be ok. But at highway speeds over long distances those free spinning parts start to
gain momentum.
When that big heavy chain in the transfer case starts moving freely it will start moving the ouput shaft
of the transmission when not in park. Now the planetary gears and clutch packs start moving.
Remember, the transmission pump is powered by the engine crankshaft. So, if the engine isnt running no
lubrication is being pumped to the parts that have now begun moving while in neutral.

Its a kind of "butterfly effect" that given enough time and momentum will destroy an automatic transmission.
Author:  racertracer [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
Jim,

I've located a 2005 jeep liberty CRD transmission for under $450.00 + shipping.

Give me a shout if you're interested.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
racertracer wrote:
Jim,

I've located a 2005 jeep liberty CRD transmission for under $450.00 + shipping.

Give me a shout if you're interested.


Thats pretty good, I think I paid $700 locally for mine.
Author:  geordi [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
RacerTracer - Thanks! I don't have an answer from the dealer yet, so I don't know if I will need that, but I will certainly let you know if I do.

With regard to towing with the trans in neutral or park - The information here is what I was led to believe as well, but I have had this discussion with other RV owners as well as my father who flat-tows our 97 Grand Cherokee 4x4 in neutral-neutral. He insists that having the trans in park is incorrect, and I had given in on the point. It has not been an issue at highway speeds before this, so I still come back to my original hypothesis and question:

The transfer case seems to have either broken the link with the handle, or somehow engaged itself and re-coupled with the transmission forcing the transmission FAR beyond any speed that fluid coupling could create. If the transmission was in park instead, how would the results be any different, other than my parking interlock would be completely destroyed in the process?

Until I have further information, the multiple-thousand-miles towing at 500 mile stretches up the length of Florida tells me that this isn't a simple fluid coupling incident. Something was different here. Putting the transfer case into neutral was the same process as always, and I felt it unlock and settle against the hitch... But I drove dead-straight at slow speed before having a look to see if everything still looked good... I didn't see anything off at that point. So something happened while en-route, which to my thinking right now is from the "sheet happens" file.

Depending on the reply from the dealer, that will determine the next course of action.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
For all who have not done so I suggest you read your owner's manual. In my copy of the 2006 owners manual the instructions for flat towing, Jeep calls it Recreational towing, start on page 293 and are continued on pages 294 and 295.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Transfer case and transmission... DOA?
Give this site a try. Prices range from $150 and up for a transfer case and $400 up for a tranny.

http://car-part.com/
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