Need help/advice on problems with my turbo.

kissfan79 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:30 pm

Hey guys....
This is my first post here. The folks over at Jeepforum.com said I should come here for advice. I will post my original thread from the jeepforum.com forums so I don't have to retype it. I apologize as it is a bit long. Here is my original post with my problems:

"Hey guys....
First off.....I'll give the long post warning . I have a problem with the turbo on my 06 CRD (99,000 miles) and need some advice on how to proceed. I know the lost Jeep forum has a great CRD section but I wanted to check here first. Here is how my issue started: I was heading out of town to visit my wife's family for a Christmas get together. I noticed on the highway that when I gave it some gas it sounded like there was wind blowing by my window (which was up). I actually looked to see if my window was cracked open a bit (wasn't). I didn't think too much about it until later when I started losing power going over overpasses. I noticed when going over overpasses it seemed to hesitate a bit and struggle for power. I also noticed my mileage was going down (over the course of about 40 minutes....my mileage went from about 27-28 down to 23.

.
As we went on further....the power loss became more evident. I got off on one of my exits and this exit curves around and upward. The Jeep really struggled to make it up the curve and was blowing smoke out the exhaust bad. We weren't too far from the nearest city so we pressed on. As long as we were on a flat road and didn't have to accelerate....things seemed fine. The problems came up when we needed to accelerate. The Jeep just had no power and would kind of surge and hesitate until up to speed. We finally made it to the gas station we like to stop at and called my wife's sister who was on the way as well. We waited for her to get there and she followed us over to the Jeep dealership 7 miles away. We dropped it off and checked it in via the late night drop off.
After waiting until Monday to get the diagnosis...the code (not sure of the number) came back as deviant boost pressure. The mechanic said the turbo was gummed up and clogged from soot and carbon and not producing boost. He said it needed to be removed, thoroughly cleaned, and put back on. I am looking at 9 hours of labor and cleaning products for a total of $970 out the door. My questions/concerns are:
A-Is it possible that there is a blown hose that would cause this rather than
the turbo being gummed and clogged? These power issues came up over a
40 minute period pretty quickly. I hate to call them back a question the
mechanic but I would hate to drop a grand on this if it is just a blown hose
or something like that.
B-Is it possible to drive the Jeep (gingerly of course) to get it back home
(about an hour) to possibly have some else look at it for a second opinion
without it causing more damage?
To sum it up.....the Jeep starts and idles fine. If you put it in gear and start to drive....it will go but as you start to go it will slow for a second, make a "whooosh" sound and start to go again. It will repeat the pattern until up to speed. Any time I step on the gas peddle...it blows black smoke out the back big time....as bad or worse than when flooring it on the highway. I will also add......it is time to change the water separator filter. It has been just over a year. Not sure if that would cause or add to the problem or not. Any thoughts or information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again and sorry for the long read .

Jim"

That was my original post. After reading and doing some more research....it seems that these are signs of blown hose or other hose issues? What do ya'll think? Any help or information would be greatly appreciated. Also.....is my Jeep driveable for about 60 miles if I am easy on it or will I do more damage? Thanks in advance!

Jim

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:54 pm

Welcome aboard, be sure to read Sams NOOB guide AND EXTREMELY IMPORTANT with 99k on the odometer you will need a new timing belt soon as the change interval is 100k. Going much past that is not advisable as this is an interference engine and a belt failure of any type means at least 16 bad lifters at $50+ each plus labor minimum. The TB change is a relatively easy DIY project especially if your location is near another member with some experience and tools although the latter can be rented from GDE. Lots of info on the forum about how to do the job.

Regarding your problem. Sounds like a classic turbo>intercooler>engine hose failure especially if you have 1st gen OEM hoses. If the hoses have a woven mesh jacket on them and are soggy with oil they are 1s gen OEM and you almost certainly have a split/tear/holes on the bottom side of 1 or both hoses which generally results in the dealer saying you have a bad or dirty turbo give me big bucks to fix. No need to get a 2n mechanic's opinion, pull the hoses off your self, remove the woven mesh jacket if there, twist/poke/mainiplate hose looking for problems including soft spots especially on the bottom of the hoses. The fix is 2n gen OEM hoses or Samcos, I prefer the latter from Boost Controller, for on the order of $250+ shipping. While you are at it check the air box to turbo hose down by the turbo for a tear just in front of the clamp on the turbo, they fail there from oil rot, and if torn the fix is a new OEM (cost on the order of $60). It is possible that you have a bad boost pressure solenoid and there is a test for that but my bet is on the hose issue.

As to how far you can drive I cannot offer a reliable opinion. I suspect a shortish drive gently is ok but would really prefer a second opinion.

kissfan79 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:17 pm

Thanks for the quick reply. Is it really even a possibility that the turbo is gummed up or is that pretty much always hogwash? My wife originally bought the Jeep before we met. I am pretty sure the hoses are the original ones and have never been replaced. This is the first vehicle I have had with a turbo so I am kinda' new to them. I would love to get the Jeep back to Raleigh and poke around at the hoses but I don't want to drive it if it will cause more problems.

Out of curiosity....what is making that "whoosh" sound when you start to take off and then it hesitates for a second (same sound I heard when on the highway when I gave it some gas before I started losing power) before going again with the problems I am having.

Thanks again,

Jim

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:33 pm

My guess is the "whoosh" sound is the turbo blowing air out of a hole in the hose(s) instead of thru the hose(s)/intercooler into the intake. The CRD turbo is a variable vane (the vanes in the turbo move to increase/decrease boost pressure) with the vanes being activated by vacuum from the vacuum canister (where the boost pressure solenoid is) just behind the air cleaner box. Perhaps not the best description but close. Yes it is possible for the vanes to stick but the much more common cause in a hose leak or bad boost pressure solenoid.

There is a relatively easy check for vane functionality at idle in park per GDE. Underneath the vacuum actuator on the turbo is rod extending downward connected to the vane mechanism. If you pull off the vacuum line at the turbo, the arm should drop about 1/2 inch and then raise back up after reconnecting the vacuum line. It is a bit difficult to see the rod, but this is the easiest method to check for proper VGT vane moevment. Don't ask me for better details than that as I have not attempted this check.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:48 pm

Hey Kissfan79,

First off, welcome aboard. Secondly, what Papaindigo is saying about the three hoses is a great place to start to look for the source of the problem. If you can't fix it on the road, the hoses likely will respond (to some degree at least) with some good old fashioned duct tape to seal it up and get you back up and running.

I would not allow the shop to charge you close to $1000 for a job like this. That said, after the hoses are checked/replaced or found to be good or at least repaired, I highly recommend driving it like you stole it to blow out the gummed up ick that is on your turbo variable veins.

I say this from experience. When I was on my first (and only) test drive with the CRD that I now own, I laid into it pretty good. I looked in my rearview mirror and could not see the car behind me it was so smoky back there! A friend of mine calls it an "Italian tune-up" in that he read in an Alfa-Romeo owners manual that you should do just that (lay into it often, i.e. weekly, monthly) in order to keep those cars running properly. Our Liberty's mill is a Vancini & Martelli afterall so it stands to reason that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

FWIW,

Hoosier CRD
(A native Charlottean)

ChesterCRD · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:10 pm

+1 on the hoses. Check them first. Maybe take some gojo, water, and a little brake cleaner with you to the dealer and wash them off enough for duct tape to stick. If you take off the intercooler end of the turbo side hose it's pretty easy to bend it around and see the underside. The other hose is more difficult to see (intercooler to intake), but on mine was in better shape.

If you can find a hole in the hose, removing the screen type wrap and wrapping duct tape around the hose tightly so it sticks to itself works well. I ran this way for a couple weeks while my Samcos were on order. If that's all it is I wouldn't hesitate to drive it home that way.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:43 pm

Hog wash sums it up nicely. How would the "mechanic" know if the turbo was gummed up without removing it first? A turbo with stuck vanes will not make a "whooshing" sound. It will simply lack power, decrease your mileage or give an over-boost code. Replace the hoses and go from there. Contrary to popular belief, the 2nd generation Jeep CAC hoses work just fine and are not prone to failure like the factory ones.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:19 pm

It's very likely just the hose. My wife's CRD showed all the symptoms you had in the first post, and it was just a split in the driver's side hose. No turbo problems.

kissfan79 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:47 pm

Thanks for the replies. I'll definately hold off on the turbo cleaning bit until I can get the hoses checked out. The place where my Jeep is at is about 60 miles away. Should I get a ride there and try and check out the hoses at the dealership myself or try and get it back home here in Raleigh? I really wish I could drive it home and then start working on it. BTW.....how difficult/what is involved in changing the hoses? From poking around the engine bay before...it seems you can hardle see the turbo from the top. Is it possible to find a hole in the hoses without taking them off? Thanks agin guys and sorry if the questions seem a bit redundant. I'm going to call the dealership tomorrow.

Jim

CATCRD · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:02 am

You have to take the hoses off and remove the protective sleeves. All you need is a flat screwdriver or 8mm nut driver. Roll them in your hands and look for splits. You will get filthy. Check out the noob guide near the top of the forum for pictures.

kissfan79 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:16 am

Ok.....stupid question....which hoses are the ones I need to check (Ill check the noob guide again but i dont remember seeing any pics of them) and where exactly are they located? Are they both on the same side as the air box?

Thanks, Jim

racertracer · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:52 am

1. Locate turbo on passenger side of engine
2. Lacate large rubber hose connected to turbo, feel where it leads to from turbo to intercooler, this the hose that needs to be checked for cracks.

3. locate other large hose on the other side of the intercooler, remove and check hose.

kissfan79 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:56 am

Ok.....so I talked to the lady in the service department at the dealership. I asked her if the tech looked at the hoses and such to check for a leak or a split. She said he did. She went back and checked with him again and she said that he said that was the first thing he checked as it would have been an easier fix. She said that he said both the turbo is going to need cleaning as well as the EGR valve. She did say that he said that it would probably make it back to Raleigh but it would just have no power (which surprised me....I thought they would tell me no irrregardless). I told her I would more than likely come and pick it up tomorrow morning and bring it back home for the time being.

What do ya'll think. I wsas going to bring it back home and check the hoses myself just to be sure but if they are indeed fine.....what would be my next step?
Thanks again guys,

Jim

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:26 am

I know nothing about the dealer in question but I'd be willing to place a small bet on whether they did or did not check the hoses and you can pretty much guess what side of the bet I'd take. Even if one assumes they really did check the hoses, which requires that they be fully removed from the vehicle to do a decent check, than the way to tell if the turbo vanes are sticking is to perform the vane functionality test I mentioned earlier. If they did not do that test then they have no way of knowing if the vanes are sticking or not. As to the EGR needing cleaning, I hate to say this but the EGR needed cleaning 10 seconds after the vehicle was driven off the lot new. That's another stock dealer answer along with your turbo needs cleaning. Not to say that EGRs don't get so gummed up as to need cleaning (FYI there is a DIY how to post if you are interested) but the best EGR fix for the $s is a GDE tune which takes care of that problem and does a lot more.

As to the hoses location go to Sams NOOB guide 1st picture. The turbo>intercooler hose is on the left next to the air box and has the mesh cover. The intercooler>intake hose clamp is just barely visible if you know what to look for in the extreme lower right corner of the picture. Removal and replacement is just like radiator hoses; no biggy just worm clamps but you need to be careful to 1) be sure they hoses are not rubbing on anything (twist as needed to fix) and 2) be sure the hoses are fully on the plastic intercooler fittings and that the clamps are fully on those fittings then tighten snug no godzilla (if clamps are right at the outer end of the fitting they can crush the fitting).

Based on what's been said on the chat and by the dealer your best bet may be to limp home and take it from there. The only other thought that comes to mind, I'm not sure I'd recommend this but it is a thought, is to try and find out if these hoses are 1st gen OEM (hint if they are and the vehicle has anything over like 30K miles on it then the exterior of the hoses is likely very oily). If so they need replacing regardless of leaks or not and you could have the Dealer install new 2n gen OEM hoses which are supposed to be ok.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:47 am

The ONLY way to check the turbo hoses is to remove them and carefully inspect them. The ONLY way to know if the turbo compressor is "gummed up" is to remove it and inspect. The actuator control arm test will indicate if the vanes are stuck for some reason but cannot indicate why.

I'd also lay money on the tech feeding the service manager a load. Remove and inspect/replace yourself and then move on to the next thing if the problem persists.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:09 pm

True enough but since the vanes are the movable part that sometimes don't move (separate from the spinning central shaft that fails in another way if its bearing goes or oil supply is lost) a "pass" on the actuator test indicates they are moving (e.g. not "gummed" up) while a failure means they are sticking or at least not moving which can mean several things including gummed up.

My only point was that there is a test for van movement that does not require turbo removal and I've got another bet that this test was not done.

kissfan79 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:14 pm

Thanks guys. I'm heading over to pick it up first thing tomorrow morning. As far as I know.....the hoses are the stock ones that came with it and it is on 99,000 miles .Im really itching to have a look-see. Also...am I correct in saying that to remover the plastic engine cover all you do is remove the oil filler cap and "pop" it off?

Jim

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:32 pm

Yep. Just pull the cover upward after removing the oil cap.

Your discription of the sound is a dead give away for a split hose.

I would ask the dealer's parts department if they have the hoses and if so buy, beg borrow or steal a 8mm nut driver, socket or whatever and replace them before you return home

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:36 pm

papaindigo wrote:

True enough but since the vanes are the movable part that sometimes don't move (separate from the spinning central shaft that fails in another way if its bearing goes or oil supply is lost) a "pass" on the actuator test indicates they are moving (e.g. not "gummed" up) while a failure means they are sticking or at least not moving which can mean several things including gummed up.

My only point was that there is a test for van movement that does not require turbo removal and I've got another bet that this test was not done.

I wasn't arguing that but simply adding to your information that there is no way that this so called "mechanic" could make a diagnosis of a "gummed up" turbo charger without actually removing it. These VGT turbos don't really get "gummed up" but they can get deposits of soot around the vanes if they are driven too gently. The prevention for that is to give it a WOT once per tank of fuel. The cure for the same is to do an Italian tune up. The only time I've ever seen an actual sticky deposit was from using too much WMO in a fuel mix. It was also easily cured with an Italian tune up.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:47 pm

nursecosmo - no problem

Joe is right on removal of the engine cover but I would add that most all the time one or more of the rubber things that hold it in place stay on the studs. If that happens pull them off and slid into their holders on the cover before attempting a reinstall. Since it's plastic I'd try not to pull it off if the ambient temp is down in the freezing range (I tend to worry about brittle cold plastic and like to do that sort of thing at 55-60F or higher just in case)

Need help/advice on problems with my turbo.

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