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Hot no start update
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=64199		 Page 1 of 7
Author:  jeepdan [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Hot no start update
Nothing conclusive yet. The dealer ordered a Fuel Quantity Solenoid by mistake, no big deal. But then, I learned that the Fuel Pressure Solenoid costs over $664.00 retail :dizzy: The dealer offered to sell it to me at wholesale for the price of $497.50 and he can get it overnight. Online price is $440.00 plus shipping. Suffering from sticker shock, I decided to wait and do more testing. Drove the jeep another week with long crank times cold and no start after shutting off warmed up most of the time.
I performed the Injector Quantity Leak Down Test the other day while the engine was warm and starting fine, it passed well within the specs. stated in the FSM.
Today the jeep will not start at all. So I put the test vials on the injectors again and placed the clear tubing back on the Fuel Pressure Solenoid return and cranked away.
Like the previous Solenoid test a week ago, I found a lot of fuel leaking past the Fuel Pressure Solenoid, I'm pretty sure that this is the problem.
I put a test meter on the Solenoid and found 3.5 ohms resistance. I probed the connector plug and found 11.8 volts on the supply pin and 3.3 volts on the signal pin which is supposed to be a pulse modulated ground. What this means? I don't know other that I think that the wiring circuit is OK. I am going to probe the solenoid and connector on CRD #1 tomorrow to compare results before I part with $500.00 :x
One more thing, If you search for the Fuel Pressure Solenoid online you will find that the price of $304.00 is incorrect.
I phoned Steve White Motors to double check. The item listed is actually a Fuel pressure SENSOR part 5159963AA
The Fuel Pressure Solenoid is Part #5159964AA at $440.00. not listed.
Author:  mozzio [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
I was hoping that you had found a fix. Mine is still in the shop also. John (the mechanic) hasn't found anything out of line yet. Hope he does before summer.
Author:  mozzio [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
Fuel Pressure Control Valve installs into fuel rail, fits Jeep Liberty Diesel 2005, 2006 OE # 5159964AA 5159964AA $389.70 4-5 days


from oregon fuel injection
Author:  jeepdan [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
mozzio wrote:
Fuel Pressure Control Valve installs into fuel rail, fits Jeep Liberty Diesel 2005, 2006 OE # 5159964AA 5159964AA $389.70 4-5 days


from oregon fuel injection

That's a lot better of a price, I will look them up. I wonder who the manufacturer is?
Author:  WolverineFW [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
jeepdan wrote:
mozzio wrote:
Fuel Pressure Control Valve installs into fuel rail, fits Jeep Liberty Diesel 2005, 2006 OE # 5159964AA 5159964AA $389.70 4-5 days


from oregon fuel injection

That's a lot better of a price, I will look them up. I wonder who the manufacturer is?


Bosch I would assume?
Author:  jeepdan [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
Probed the Fuel Pressure Solenoid and it's wiring connector on CRD #1. I found no differences in test results between the two CRDs. Coil resistance 3.5 ohms, pin voltages 11.8volts and 3.4volts at the connector.
That said, there must be a mechanical failure in the solenoid allowing fuel to pass through during cranking.
Author:  WolverineFW [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
jeepdan wrote:
Probed the Fuel Pressure Solenoid and it's wiring connector on CRD #1. I found no differences in test results between the two CRDs. Coil resistance 3.5 ohms, pin voltages 11.8volts and 3.4volts at the connector.
That said, there must be a mechanical failure in the solenoid allowing fuel to pass through during cranking.


Is it two wires or three? you measured the resistances to ground or across the terminals? did you measure after the engine was hot, since that is when you have been having problems?
Author:  jeepdan [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
WolverineFW wrote:
jeepdan wrote:
Probed the Fuel Pressure Solenoid and it's wiring connector on CRD #1. I found no differences in test results between the two CRDs. Coil resistance 3.5 ohms, pin voltages 11.8volts and 3.4volts at the connector.
That said, there must be a mechanical failure in the solenoid allowing fuel to pass through during cranking.


Is it two wires or three? you measured the resistances to ground or across the terminals? did you measure after the engine was hot, since that is when you have been having problems?

There are two wires, I measured DC voltage to ground with ignition on.

As written in the FSM;
Pin #1 Brown wire; is Solenoid Control from the ECM, which is a pulse width modulated signal.
Pin #2 Bown/orange wire: is Solenoid Supply from the ECM, which apparently is 12 volts.
I did not have a chance to measure while "hot" because it has not restarted since I drove it home from work Thursday night. :(
Author:  dkenny [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
can you put an oscilloscope on the pins while it running?
or measure the AC on the pins?
if the signal is a pulsed signal the DC volt reading won't make a bunch of sense..

I wondering if the signal is a pulse or PWM signal to the selenoid..neither would should up well on a volt meter.

-dkenny
Author:  WolverineFW [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
You might want to read this thread by our esteemed GMCTD on another forum.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187222

I noticed an interesting part:

Quote:
FUEL CONTROL ACTUATOR

DESCRIPTION
The Fuel Control Actuator solenoid valve is located on the back of the front cover of the high-pressure pump. The solenoid is pulse-width modulated by the ECM and meters the amount of fuel that flows into the high-pressure elements inside the high-pressure pump.
The solenoid is inactive up to 30 seconds after IGNition switch is initially keyed to ON position to allow maximum fuel pressure to the fuel rail during cranking and start up. ECM assumes FCA valve control when CPS signal and rail pressure are within acceptable limits


Maybe it is activating too soon when the engine is warm causing starting problems?
Author:  jeepdan [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
Good info thanks, With GDE and few others telling me that the Fuel Pressure Solenoid on the back of the fuel rail shouldn't be passing fuel during cranking, I have decided that I'm going to replace that part first. Then, I will retest the injectors for Leak Quantity. It could be more that one part wearing out, but I hope not. $$$$$$
Author:  whitedog [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
jeepdan wrote:
Good info thanks, With GDE and few others telling me that the Fuel Pressure Solenoid on the back of the fuel rail shouldn't be passing fuel during cranking, I have decided that I'm going to replace that part first. Then, I will retest the injectors for Leak Quantity. It could be more that one part wearing out, but I hope not. $$$$$$


In the FSM, it mentions that if you replace one injector because it shows excessive leakage, to retest after the new one is in since that one leaking may have been the path of least resistance and others may be leaking excessively as well. Has anyone ever noticed this?
Author:  jeepdan [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
Finally have the new Fuel Pressure Solenoid in. It's too late and I'm too tired to test drive. A hot bath and glass of wine are all I want right now. I spent four hours making special tools to properly torque the darn thing.
I found the body of the Fuel Pressure Solenoid coated with a film of brown rust inside :shock:
The rust might have caused a failure to the valve, hopefully it's not an omen of more trouble to come.
After a long crank to purge air out of the fuel rail it is starting fine cold. I will report hot results tomorrow.
Author:  Hoosier CRD [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
Re: Injector testing.

I encourage you to test all four (4) injectors. While a high return on one will not condemn all, they may all have different test results. Comparing the results to the standards for the injector is the only way to truly know of their performance.

FWIW,

Hoosier CRD
Author:  jeepdan [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
Hoosier CRD wrote:
Re: Injector testing.

I encourage you to test all four (4) injectors. While a high return on one will not condemn all, they may all have different test results. Comparing the results to the standards for the injector is the only way to truly know of their performance.

FWIW,

Hoosier CRD

What standards are you referring to? The FSM only gives a comparison test between the four to determine a bad one.
Then you retest again after replacing a suspect injector.
Author:  jeepdan [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
Not fixed yet :x
After coming home from a 45 minute test drive, it restarted twice OK right after shutdown :) "I think I will try it one more time", third time, nothing :x Tried three more, eight second cranks with no fire, the engine just spinned happily.
After about five minutes I decided to a hook up clear hose to Fuel Pressure Solenoid return just to satisfy my curiosity.
Went to crank engine and it started up unexpectedly with no effort :?: it could have not have turned over two seconds.
I think I hear it laughing at me :shock: :shock:
Author:  mozzio [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
I think I know just what you mean about it laughing.
Fuel Pressure Solenoid did not help me. Hope it cures your problems.
Author:  jeepdan [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
mozzio wrote:
I think I know just what you mean about it laughing.
Fuel Pressure Solenoid did not help me. Hope it cures your problems.

The new Fuel Pressure Solenoid is installed, and it did not fix the problem. I'm not sure where to turn next.
Author:  mozzio [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
jeepdan wrote:
mozzio wrote:
I think I know just what you mean about it laughing.
Fuel Pressure Solenoid did not help me. Hope it cures your problems.

The new Fuel Pressure Solenoid is installed, and it did not fix the problem. I'm not sure where to turn next.



I just tried a cam shaft sensor, no help. Mechanic is suggesting a crank shaft sensor. All the fuel test passed with no problems indicated. Any other sensors that may be involved?
Author:  2mopar_diesels [ Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hot no start update
jeepdan wrote:
Not fixed yet :x
After coming home from a 45 minute test drive, it restarted twice OK right after shutdown :) "I think I will try it one more time", third time, nothing :x Tried three more, eight second cranks with no fire, the engine just spinned happily.
After about five minutes I decided to a hook up clear hose to Fuel Pressure Solenoid return just to satisfy my curiosity.
Went to crank engine and it started up unexpectedly with no effort :?: it could have not have turned over two seconds.
I think I hear it laughing at me :shock: :shock:



Believe the guys before........the CTD in Dodges have the same type of problem with their CP3 pumps.........it's most assuredly the FCA valve on the back of the pump.
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