Oil-Air Separator

josh8loop · **Posted:** Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:43 pm

Chamba wrote:

josh8loop wrote:

Guys,

I've got to say, all the installation jobs you are doing look great! It's funny seeing that cyclonic separator I mentioned being used so much here

Glad it has worked out for you all. As we know however it's performance can be increased. On my 2002 VW Jetta TDI where I first used the BMW cyclonic separator I was collecting a little more than 1 ounce per 10K miles. Remember my car is only a 1.9L engine, and separation efficiency increases as the CCV flow rate increases. Since your CRD's are much higher displacement, you all have much more flow than I do. One recent addition to my cyclonic setup I've added is some stainless steel scouring pad mesh to the inlet tubing going to the cyclonic separator. So far early indication are telling me that it has increased collected volume by about 20%. I loosely packed it in there so I didn't restrict the air flow too much on mine.

I guess you all aren't having any freeze up issues?

This is exactly why I have not added steel wool to my input line: what effect would the cold have on flow? Once that wool gets coated in oil, a nice -10f day like we've had around here recently could result in no air flow... which could result in a blown main seal or worse. This is what worries me, and I'm happy to burn a bit of oil through my intake (though far less than before I chucked the BMW cyclonic filter in-line) for the peace-of-mind that my crankcase is not presurising.

Obviously if you live in Florida, California, Phoenix (or some place stupidly hot like Australia; which makes Phoenix look like a cool oasis), this would be a moot point and the steel wool holds a lot of merit.

Chamba

It's always a good idea to monitor things closely, especially crank case pressure. I have a hard time believing that Stainless Steel wool damp with oil even at -10 or below will restrict flow considerably especially with a 3/4" ID line. Oil flows/drips even at those temperatures and will quickly move towards the lowest point. Try to make that lowest point the separator. Also, when the CCV flow starts it will quickly come up to a higher temperature and that will further increase the ability of oil entrained SS wool to shed liquid oil. Now using very long uninsulated runs of CCV plumbing isn't a good idea due to ice formation. SS mesh laden with water, and forming ice blockage would be a major concern especially at startup. Even if you were concerned with placing SS scour pad in line, by increasing the ID of the area that contains the SS material(to say 2" for instance) will allow the velocity of CC gasses to slow(which helps the SS material to remove more liquid oil) and also increases the area that the CCV gasses have to flow through. Remember most off the shelf oil catch cans/separators already have some sort of mesh packing in them as well, and some with extremely fine mesh-much finer than our SS scouring pad.

Chamba · **Posted:** Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:32 pm

A step-up to a 2" line is a good idea which I hadn't thought of. I'm not sure I have room under the bonnet for that though.

Anyone done this?

dgeist · **Posted:** Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:24 pm

Anyone want to just have the oldnavy filter made?:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6501

Dan

Dennis MacGyver · **Posted:** Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:55 pm

dgeist wrote:

Anyone want to just have the oldnavy filter made?:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6501

Dan

OK so how does it mount ??

dgeist · **Posted:** Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:05 pm

Dennis MacGyver wrote:

OK so how does it mount ??

That one is from a VW TDI and it takes the place of the puck on the top of the intake manifold. A long-time TDI and (former) forum frequenter, "Old Navy" had them built and they're famous in the TDI community. There was a grass-roots effort to make some that would fit the VM Motori engine on the forum some years back, but it never "took root".

Dan

Dennis MacGyver · **Posted:** Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:30 pm

dgeist wrote:

Dennis MacGyver wrote:

OK so how does it mount ??

That one is from a VW TDI and it takes the place of the puck on the top of the intake manifold. A long-time TDI and (former) forum frequenter, "Old Navy" had them built and they're famous in the TDI community. There was a grass-roots effort to make some that would fit the VM Motori engine on the forum some years back, but it never "took root".

Dan

I think a solution to our CRD's might be a modified or manufactured CVC "top cap", retaining the base of the current unit. IF there is room to be accommodated under the big black engine cover, maybe the height of the cap could be increased to allow a larger disc of filter material (like the white one(s) shown in the above VW Tdi picture). Maybe the cap could be held on with a wing nut like air filter chambers of engines of long ago.

Something really needs to be done about all the oil lose through the CVC and into the air intake. One to two ounces per thousand miles is NOT acceptable usage in my book.

Here's a Donaldson system I came across similar the the Mann Provent with a lot more explanations ... http://www.donaldson.com/en/exhaust/sup ... 061798.pdf

Also one by Parker/Raycor http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKE ... nextfmt=EN

For those of you who want to install an oil drain back valve for your Provent, the Parker/Raycor part number is ( CCV55279 ) It's 1/3 the cost of the Mann Provent valve.
Here's a source.
http://www.nationalfleetparts.com/CCV55 ... RWvDqXCaSo

Dennis MacGyver · **Posted:** Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:52 pm

The CCV Bible

Why a Functional Crankcase Ventilation System Matters to You and Your High-Performance Engine
by Mikah Barnett, 11/9/2011

http://www.allanglesdesign.com/portals/ ... _Bible.pdf

Dennis MacGyver · **Posted:** Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:04 pm

For those who want to know the deep stuff of CCV science

http://www.ilot.edu.pl/KONES/2006/02/16.pdf

josh8loop · **Posted:** Thu May 02, 2013 10:05 am

Wanted to update. After I installed some Stainless Steel scouring pad material loosly packed in the line upstream of the BMW Cyclonic separator, the volume of oil collected over the past 5K miles appears to be double what it was before I added the SS material. I will measure the collected volume and report back. It appears that the added material makes a big difference on how much oil gets mechanically filtered out while still retaining full CCV flow. Again, I use my cyclonic separator on my 1.9L VE Jetta TDI, but I know that it's separation efficiency can be increased since we know the Provent separates alot more. I am actively trying to make my setup better since I don't want crud coming into my engine unneccessarily , so if I come up with anything that pans out I will let you all know-Hopefully I can get it dialed in so that the performance matches the Provent at a reduce initial cost

Another question....

Do you guys have issues with oil pooling up in the lower intercooler?

josh8loop · **Posted:** Thu May 02, 2013 4:53 pm

I just confirmed my visual observation of the oil collected. After measuring it this afternoon, I can now say that without SS mesh installed the oil collection rate is .00011 ounce per mile, and with SS mesh installed is .0002 ounce per mile. Looks like I've nearly doubled the separation efficiency by adding the loosely packed mesh. This is heading in the right direction!

Auberon · **Posted:** Fri May 03, 2013 6:43 am

I realise that I don't have the freezing issues but I suggest considering the following:

As a cyclone is a [u]pre-cleaner[/u] has anyone considered installing one in series before the ProVent?
From the figures being touted, it would probably halve the flow to the Provent.
I'm a big believer in pre-filters.
It would also serve to remove much of the water (condensate) from the system that is so problematic to you folks in cold country and significantly reduce the likelihood of a frozen ProVent and seals blowing - would it not?
@ 38 mm (1 1/2 inches) diameter it is not big.

Just a thought.

josh8loop · **Posted:** Fri May 03, 2013 9:07 am

Auberon wrote:

I realise that I don't have the freezing issues but I suggest considering the following:

As a cyclone is a pre-cleaner has anyone considered installing one in series before the ProVent?
From the figures being touted, it would probably halve the flow to the Provent.
I'm a big believer in pre-filters.
It would also serve to remove much of the water (condensate) from the system that is so problematic to you folks in cold country and significantly reduce the likelihood of a frozen ProVent and seals blowing - would it not?
@ 38 mm (1 1/2 inches) diameter it is not big.

Just a thought.

The Provent uses cyclonic action plus the mechanical separation to acheive it's high performance. You could theoretically install the BMW unit and the Provent in series and perhaps increased oil separation. Anytime you drop temperature you have the ability to condense water vapor. Really all actions should be taken to keep CCV temperatures high enough so that water stays in vapor form. Keeping separators close to the engine block, and well insulated should help in this regard. I wasn't aware of the Provent freezing issue. Keeping the provent temperature higher would help this issue, and perhaps switching the Provent filter media to one that sheds water(hydrophobic) would also reduce the chance of freeze up. I also haven't seen anyone insulate the Provent when it was installed. Maybe just a thin layer of Armacell sticky backed insulation available at Lowes for $7.00 would be enough to keep the CCV heat inside the separator and stop the freeze up issue. Original BMW winterized applications insulate the cyclonic separators for this very reason :idea:

Auberon · **Posted:** Fri May 03, 2013 11:40 am

The ProVent is very much oversized for the VM engine for any value as a cyclone. It relies on the filter putting up a separation barrier for particulates.
With respect, this forum is very prolific and a lot of pre-reading is needed to see what has been tried historically - good brains trust here and being going for a long time....but new ideas are welcomed.
I have about as much worry about re cold as your good self and I do not presume to offer a solution only a thought as an old particulate/air separation engineer.

josh8loop · **Posted:** Sat May 04, 2013 10:41 am

Auberon wrote:

The ProVent is very much oversized for the VM engine for any value as a cyclone. It relies on the filter putting up a separation barrier for particulates.
With respect, this forum is very prolific and a lot of pre-reading is needed to see what has been tried historically - good brains trust here and being going for a long time....but new ideas are welcomed.
I have about as much worry about re cold as your good self and I do not presume to offer a solution only a thought as an old particulate/air separation engineer.

Thank you for your input. Perhaps I came across a little different'y than I intended-I certainly don't know it all, but I do have some experimental research that I have performed which helps to guide any recommendations I make. I thought the Provent seemed a bit large to me but fellas here were having reasonable results with it. Most likely due to the "separation barrier" like you mention. On my VW TDI I initially tried to design my own cyclonic separator with some junk yard components and some stainless steel funnel material. Here is the TDI club thread where it played out:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=325015

I ended up with a neat looking little unit that didn't work very well with the minimal flow from my 1.9L engine. I did some more research and found the BMW cyclonic separator as used on the M5's. Since it was so cheap and had an OEM type look I figured I would give it a shot. Once I received it, I blew air through the inlet with my mouth and heard a whirring sound which was indicative of cyclonic action inside. My previous home made version never had that sound when I blew through it which is why it never worked very well. Since I heard the cyclonic action happening inside I new this BMW unit would have some serious possibilities. During my research activities I knew about the Provent and it's construction and that guys were having some good results with it. Since it was so cost prohibitive at that time(it's cheaper now) I figured I knew the internal design I could mod mine to be as or almost as effective at a minimal cost. This is where I'm at right now.

Earlier in this Thread and before I was a member here one of the other Lost Jeeps Forum members stumbled upon my information on the BMW separator and presented it to this group. During some of my online research I came across his post here and figured I would share with this community some modifications that I have done that experimentally have shown increased separation efficiency- almost double my previous results with the unmodified BMW separator. It's interesting just how far some technical information shared on the internet can go

I have a stake in this oil mist removal issue since I own two diesels and they both suffer from some amount of unnecessary oil intrusion. I definitely wanted to present these findings to other diesel enthusiasts.

Also during the course of my research I looked at how other vehicle types handle this issue. Both oil separation, and mitigating moisture buildup within the system which can create milky oil/water phases reducing separator efficiency and can lead to CCV system failure during freezing conditions. While like you I don't live in a climate where this is an issue, perhaps in the future I may. It's worth the time to get this figured out and designed correctly now so I can implement it later if need be. Hopefully I won't be chastised because of this?

Auberon · **Posted:** Mon May 06, 2013 3:04 pm

I think the primary issue starts here:
1...folks using Mobil 1 (although the Nth American formulary is different to ours) may have a frothing issue which promulgates the oil mist issue. These oils seem to follow a very nasty pattern (VI @100dge C is on the decline). I think the oil needs to have a rating (please forgive me for not using an API rating but Mobil 1 does not publish anything that is not obsolete.....and I have come to the conclusion that on ACEA A3/B4 is inadequate. I am trying to trace an ACEA rating of E6/E7.
2...the dipstick needs to be calibrated .....if you read SirSams' welcome to Newbies he mentions not filling to the upper mark on the dipstick
3...the "PUCK" as we affectionately refer to it is the primary culprit and has a poor fundamental design that is expected to act as both a primary and tertiary air / oil mist separator. This has obvious benefits of designed to be more efficient:
This would do away with the freezing issues.
Physically dispel having to collect waste oil periodically.
Warming quickly with the rising heat of the engine.
Primary problem is that flow rate varies so dramatically through the rate of air displacement of this air pump through the rev range and this is where a cyclone of fixed diameter loses out and where the ProVent picks up with the physical screening / barrier.
4...this has been looked at way back in the history of the Forum but did not get off the ground - it is a difficult one to solve but not insurmountable - just tricky.
5...when time permits this is one of the areas of my KJ CRD that WILL be remade.
6....along with the silly placement of the MAP sensor (that's another story). Mine is going onto a machined such that it can easily be removed for cleaning the MAP with the addition of porting for Boost gauges. I know boost can be accessed through SmartPhones and those wonderful collective APPs by Mr Hawkins but I like a gauge for the primaries.....in case I forget my phone.
I am not a fan of drilling rocker covers in situ as some have done. I had considered installing a boost gauge at the plug for the camshaft locking plug port.
(I can machine / form / weld anything I need like this.)
I have looked at the previous etchings on this and thought I would go with something rather like the internals of a cyclonic vacuum cleaner. A 3-d printer is on the agenda but a long way off:juggle: That could make these fiddles repeatable and easily modded.
But to get back to the real fix:
IMO the only real answer to this issue along with the points noted above with the puck and watching the oil level / durability.

josh8loop · **Posted:** Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:39 pm

Ok, so I have the long awaited update after adding stainless steel scour pad mesh just upstream of my BMW cyclonic separator. If you remember I was separating a little over 1 ounce in 10K miles on my TDI. Early visual indications were that adding the mesh was indeed increasing the oil separation efficiency by what appeared to be 100%. Today I measured the actual amount collected after this recent 10K mile interval and found it had removed 2.5 oz. That is 150% more than the standard pre SS mesh separation numbers. It looks like around .25 oz of that was liquid water. I never really accumulated liquid water in significant amounts before the SS mesh installation so the increased water separation leads me to believe that there is a strong physical and thermal interaction between the mesh and the CCV/lower intercooler bleed flow.

Lessons learned here is that the very simple and cheap addition of loosely packed SS scour pad mesh upstream of the cyclonic air/oil separator can increase the separation efficiency by 150%. Also, with the increased liquid water accumulation from the thermal effects of the mesh necessitate tubing insulation be added and tubing lengths be reduced to as short a length possible. Remember my engine is only 1.9L so your numbers will be different on the CRD's but the lessons learned would still apply

Lancer · **Posted:** Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:19 am

Thanks for this Josh.

kidjedi · **Posted:** Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:05 pm

Just installed the Provent on my '06. In doing so, I snapped the plastic piece inside the hose that goes from the CCV puck to the Turbo Hose, so I robbed the Turbo hose from my other Jeep for the time being. When I unhooked the hose from the CCV, I noticed it was completely clogged with oil sludge. It actually shot out like a bullet (followed by a lot of gooey gunk) when I sent compressed air through the hose. This got me to looking at that Jeep's CCV puck. It is also completely full of thick goo (oil sludge). This has me thinking that maybe we should actually be cleaning out that CCV oil separator (if you don't have a Provent, or if the Provent was installed after many miles and the puck is already full).

I haven't found a lot of info on the subject, but here is a YouTube video to a guy who did it, so you can see what is inside that CCV puck and how he used generic filter material to replace the original filter media inside the puck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MYyoNjXjPk

ebbnflow · **Posted:** Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:25 pm

I had to replace my CCV puck cause it was leaking oil vapor all over my engine compartment. When I disassembled it, there was no sludge inside.

The ccv shouldn't get sludgy since soot should not be present, just oil vapor. The mixing of soot and oil vapor is what causes sludge.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Lancer · **Posted:** Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:20 am

I just fitted a new one last year because it was covered with a film of oil. They don't cost much as I recall.

Oil-Air Separator

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