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My libby wont start?? - SOLVED
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=64638		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  darinb [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  My libby wont start?? - SOLVED
So my fan belt came off today as I was going down a hill and I was able to roll into an open area. Now my Jeep wont start. My engine shut off completely while going down the hill and power steering went out. My fan belt has come off before but the engine did not shut off. What could be going on????? :banghead:

If the fan belt got binded up in the fan could that cause any internal damage?

The first thing I thought was battery/alternator but it seems to have enough battery power... even tried jumping it.
Author:  papaindigo [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
Thoughts:
1. long term you need to fix the cause of the belt coming off - either a badly stretched belt or bad tensioner or both; last time it happened to me (not CRD) it was tensioner.
2. did the engine just die or did it stall. If it just died (e.g. quit running like the key was turned off) I don't see you having internal damage but if it stalled and the serp belt was all wrapped up tight in the fan I suppose, how likely I don't know, it's possible that could cause the TB to skip. If you have access to the Miller tools or even can make tools (see the link on the left of http://www.beesvillebeefarm.com/index.html - note that a 6mm Allen key will do, per 2005 FSM, for flywheel key) you can check that externally.
3. if serp belt wrapped up by fan could do bad things to radiator core.
4. off hand I suspect the lose of the belt sent all sorts of failure signals to the ECU such that you may need to effectively reboot the system by disconnecting the battery for a while.

When you say won't start - turn key and nothing happens vs turn key and starter/engine turns over but won't fire vs. ?
Author:  darinb [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
Sorry for the lack of detail.

Source of problem is a bad tensioner. It should arrive in the mail today.

I made a left turn about 200 yards before the engine cut off (still had power steering). I didnt even know it was off until I went around a curve and realized I didn't have power steering. I then hit the gas pedal and the engine did not rev. I coasted down the hill off the road and came to a stop. When I turn the key the engine will turn over but never start. It almost starts and the abs light comes on and it's like it bogs down. I don't know if it is a sensor or something computer related that is keeping it from starting maybe?
Author:  papaindigo [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
Other than the battery reboot trick, assuming the battery is fully charged and in good shape, I'm out of ideas. Let's see what others say.
Author:  darinb [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
I disconnected the battery for about 60 seconds after it shut off. How long does it need to be disconnected to reboot?

Could the belt have hit a sensor or something when it came loose?
Author:  darinb [ Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
I went and bought a code reader and I am getting the p0340 code which means: "camshaft position sensor a - bank 1 circuit malfunction"

any help? :banghead:
Author:  dylan7495 [ Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
darinb wrote:
I went and bought a code reader and I am getting the p0340 code which means: "camshaft position sensor a - bank 1 circuit malfunction"

any help? :banghead:



I'm no expert but that sounds like TB has jumped a tooth or belt damaged sensor or wiring when it came off.

My GTI did the same thing except my serp belt broke under hard accelaration. which somehow caused the tb to jump. mechanic says the serp probably snaged on a pulley effectively holding it while the rest of the engine turned.
Author:  msilbernagel [ Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
I got that code when the timing belt lost teeth - it's not a good sign.

Any chance the serp belt failure damaged the timing cover?

Hope you're more fortunate..

Mark
Author:  darinb [ Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
Anything related to the timing belt is not what i was hoping to hear. the timing cover is fine. it just cranks and cranks and never starts. what did you end up doing when yours skipped teeth? take it to the dealer?

i had a new timing belt, thermo, water pump, idlers etc put on at 100k so i thought i wouldnt have to hear the word timing belt for a while!
Author:  racertracer [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
darinb wrote:
I went and bought a code reader and I am getting the p0340 code which means: "camshaft position sensor a - bank 1 circuit malfunction"

any help? :banghead:


Has the code been present for a while?


If the P0340 code has been on prior to the sepentine belt came off, then it maybe a TB tooth jumping?
Author:  msilbernagel [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
It's possible that the sensor went bad and the code is exactly what it says..

I'd be suspicious of a timing belt, but it shouldn't have gone in so few miles unless something was off. Could the serp belt snapping caused enough of a jerk on the crankshaft damper to strip teeth on the timing belt?

At this point, it's all speculation and needs some skilled diagnostics.
Author:  darinb [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
To my knowledge the code has not been present util now. The only code that is old looks to be the ORM.

I guess I will order the sensor first since it is cheapest. The dealership did the timing belt but that doesn't mean much. They had to keep a day longer than they thought because I'm sure it was their first CRD belt. When I first called about changing the timing belt they said "i think those will have a timing chain"

I would like to open up the timing cover and take some pics while I am waiting on the sensor. What is the best way to get the fan off? i have read that it is a pain.
Author:  msilbernagel [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
Getting the fan off.. there are other, better write ups around that are associated with the timing belt changes so I'd encourage you to look at them.

What I did was use the big wrench I'd purchased to take the fan off of a dodge Cummins diesel - turns out they're the same size. Most use the biggest crescent (or whatever) wrench they can find to fit and strike it with a hammer (CCW). To hold it still, they put a tool of some sort through the holes of the odd looking pulley the fan is attached to. One fellow put a long socket over the bold he could reach through one of the holes - whatever you use the goal is to catch on the underlying real estate long enough to loosen the fan.

One person slid cardboard between radiator and fan to protect the radiator (good idea).

Loosen the two bolts holding the fan shroud and unclip the wire ties that hold the A/C hoses across the top of it.

Lift the shroud and fan off together.

THat's the short version.

Mark
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
See second picture after the one with the palm nailer at http://www.beesvillebeefarm.com/jeep.html for that "hidden" bolt and using an allen key to keep the fan from turning. Or see viewtopic.php?f=5&t=64152&p=709133&hilit=made+lisle#p709133 for a home made holder tool.

However, I think you may be going at this the hard way. If your goal is to check the position of the timing belt to see if it has "skipped" I don't think you need to pull the cover. You should be able to manually rotate the engine, battery disconnected, just like you were doing a timing belt to line things up and then use a 6mm allen key (see 2005 FSM writeup) to check the flywheel position hole (tap around the hole to make sure you have found a small hole not a cut out) and 2 home made cam lock bolts (see the beesville link above for examples if you don't have access to the Miller tools) to see if the cams are also lined up. If all 3 are correctly aligned I'm pretty sure, but would like confirmation, that your TB alignment is correct.

Of course a visual inspection would be better if you are worried about lost or damaged TB teeth.
Author:  darinb [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
Thanks for the help on the fan removal. I feel more confident about doing it now.

But first I'll try the easier method you mentioned (papadingo). This is probably a dumb question.. but how do I manually rotate the engine without removing the cover? Bump the starter?
Author:  msilbernagel [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
darinb wrote:
Thanks for the help on the fan removal. I feel more confident about doing it now.

But first I'll try the easier method you mentioned (papadingo). This is probably a dumb question.. but how do I manually rotate the engine without removing the cover? Bump the starter?


There's a big nut in the center of the crank damper pulley...

Mark
Author:  darinb [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
is that the large pulley on the bottom center pictured here?

Image


Also, the belt didn't snap.. it just popped off and got tangled in the fan. If it was still wrapped around the crank damper pulley could
that have caused TB problems?
Author:  msilbernagel [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
darinb wrote:
is that the large pulley on the bottom center pictured here?
...If it was still wrapped around the crank damper pulley could
that have caused TB problems?


Yes, that's the one - larger item bottom/center.

As for the other, possibly, if there was a sudden jerk on the crank that would interrupt enough inertia to cause a shock to the timing belt.. the cams, water pump, and fuel pump/cp3 would tend to keep going when the serp-belt tried to jerk it to a stop.

Still, that's only a theory.

Mark
Author:  papaindigo [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
Yes you use a 21mm socket and socket wrench on the nut on that lowest pulley to manually, battery disconnected, rotate the engine CLOCKWISE only, see step 6 of GDE timing belt instructions at http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/1729864 ... 8-meg?da=y . What I'm not sure about is whether or not you can get at that nut without removing the fan as the crankshaft damp is below the fan mount and I suspect, Jeep not here right now so I cannot look, that the front skid blocks access from below. Manually turning the engine is "stiff" but doable; I'd suggest a relatively long handled rachet for the leverage but it can be done with a standard 1/2" drive rachet.
Author:  darinb [ Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My libby wont start??
Thanks for the help. I got the fan off using a 6 allen wrench in the hole on the pulley and a large crescent wrench. it popped right off with the allen wrench method used here: http://www.beesvillebeefarm.com/jeep.html

I am going to tear into it this weekend and hopefully I won't find out bad news...
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