How long can the VM428 engine be expected to last?

j_humph · **Posted:** Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:15 pm

So I really like this jeep, but I am looking at needing to replace the head gasket soon. I am at about 130k miles.

When I do it, I want to do it right, so I'll most likely use the ARP studs. Hopefully everything else is OK, i.e.warped head,etc.

The question is: how long are these engines really expected to last? I see on VMM's web site that they have produced hundreds of thousands of these engines, are people in Europe getting long life out of them?

Are the Europeans upgrading the engines like we like to do here in the US? Maybe I'm not doing the right search, but does anyone know of any European web sites that discuss maintenance/ performance/ mods to these engines? Obviously they are used in a lot more vehicles than just these jeeps.

My concern is that this Libby could just end up being a money pit, as much as I would hate to think it.

irollgen4s · **Posted:** Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:37 pm

mines with a family member at passed 172k miles with nothing but oil and air filter changes. I tuned it with GDE hot tune at 140~ish miles. Still has the stock transmission too. As long as they're maintained and not abused they'll run without problems for a long time.

Hexus · **Posted:** Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:35 pm

irollgen4s wrote:

mines with a family member at passed 172k miles with nothing but oil and air filter changes. I tuned it with GDE hot tune at 140~ish miles. Still has the stock transmission too. As long as they're maintained and not abused AND YOU ARE VERY LUCKY they'll run without problems for a long time.

Fixed.

j_humph · **Posted:** Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:45 pm

None of that makes any sense , or answers the question.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:07 pm

Here is my take. In Europe, emissions controls are based upon emissions per mile traveled. In the US emissions controls are based upon emissions per GALLON OF FUEL. Because of this standard, diesel manufacturers don't get to take advantage of the innate efficiency of Mr. Diesel's compression ignition engine, and we end up with EPA mandated LOW zinc oils and other suboptimal engineering choices, like EGR etc. This results in higher soot loads than European diesels, and greater demand on lube oil at the same time that said oil has less additive to cope with the increased soot load.

In stock form, I would expect this engine to last on average about 200,000 miles; some more, some less. With improved oil filtration, ARP studs, better lubrication of the turbo, and other mods, I expect to run these Jeeps for half a million miles or more.

Glend · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:15 am

I recently had a question sent to me from GDE asking about reliability of the VM engine down here. It was primarily a question about the ongoing debate about rockers, but the response applies here in general.

We have had the VM engine in both the 2.5L and 2.8L variants from 2002 and I have (in my role as KJ FOrum moderator on the Ausjeep forum) never heard of a single case of rocker failure (unless it was due to ta timing belt break). Yeah we have an occasional timing belt break but its pretty rare, but down here the recommended timing belt service interval is 100,000kms.

I don't know about the the mandating of low zinc oils etc in the US (unless it's a DPF equipped vehicle), but the owners manuals are pretty clear about what you should be using, and CF was the recommendation at the time of manufacture for the late model KJ CRDs. Yes, Ch and CI oils are great but they are also more expensive. Far more important is the drain interval used and shorter is better. Long drain intervals and long drain oils have no place in the VM engine in my opinion.

As far as longevity is concerned, we have a fair number of people with over 250,000kms now on the engine who would have had a couple of timing belt changes under their belt and a new water pump but really nothing major to worry about - they just keep on going. They should be 500,000kms engines IN THE RIGHT HANDS.

I can't accept that anyone needs to replace or remove a head at 130,000 mile or whatever, without clear evidence of a problem. We don't have head problems here as far as I can determine.

I don't know of any owners down here that are doing any of this rebuild activity that gets alot of posting on LOST: rocker replacements, stud replacements, warped heads, etc. There seems to be a histeria developing without any clear explanation.

It will be interesting to see what GDE come up with in their rocker research and discussions with VM, but like the question above implies, the rest of the world doesn't have those problems so what is it about the US market, drivers, fuel, maintenance, oil etc that makes these vehicles so flaky there?

TJ2 · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:49 am

Thanks Glend, I quite agree about the hysteria. I've only met one forum member face to face. I drove over to Fort Colins to have Sam do my tb job. He doesn't understand the ongoing crisis either. The people I've actually met with CRD's are not having the problems I read about here.

It seems some newer forum members bought vehicles that weren't properly maintained and they're fixing problems created by PO's. It also seems like some members just like to constantly 'fix' their vehicles. Reminds me of the 'fix it 'til it's broke' school of mechanics.

I replaced the fan clutch, t-stat, and fixed EGR when I bought mine. The last 2yrs 10 months, 30k plus miles have been trouble free.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:22 am

Glend

I've had first hand experience on this US versus the rest of the world saga on another vehicle, a 1984 VW Vanagon, I once owned. The waterboxer flat four engine in the US had sealing problems where the heads met the cylinders and there seemed to be no cure :dizzy:

Coolant was the prime suspect. Again the "rest of the world" had no such problems :banghead:

Joe

Hexus · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:24 am

I know mine started failing right after 100,000 miles. IIRC 100,000km ~ 62,000 miles so His statement of 130k Miles would be ~200,000km

Alas I digress.

I got the ECO tune from GDE at approximately 105,000 miles because I was having issues with my EGR/FCV and I wanted to just forgo them so I could pass emissions and get my license plates (Legally my Jeep was undriveable because I couldn't renew the license plates with a check engine light on).

I replaced the EGR valve to find out it was the FCV valve (darn you chrysler with your duo-egr named valves), then I decided (After reading here about multiple egr failure and fining out that the FCV was $400 at the time) to just do the GDE tune and forgo both in the future.

I have ALWAYS used 0W40 Mobil-1 Synthetic oil and have never made it to 6250 miles before I changed it. I do not depend on Idiot lights and buzzers to remind me to change the oil.

When I did the EGR/ECU debacle, I also found out about the glow plugs, and I had to change out all 4 glow plugs as well a few days later, and I finally found the last problem at the ASM relay causing my glow plug codes and dead battery issues.

I knew I was overdue for a timing belt change, and should have done it prior to 117k miles.

When my turbo started crapping out, because I read these forums, I checked the CAC hose on the air box and found the proverbial hole at the bottom of the hose on the underside of the turbo intake. I temporarily repaired it with some high temperature tape and wanted to get home, I had my wife order my turbo hoses that minute and got them the next day.

I checked the turbo vanes to ensure my turbo hadn't completely crapped out, and started up the engine and everything ran well again. I was just trying to get home, I had no intention of driving it that way for days.

10 miles later, my turbo completely crapped out, belched thick black smoke, and died. I immediately put the engine into neutral, switched off the key, and had her towed home. I did not restart the engine until I had replaced the turbo.

When I replaced the turbo and started the engine, it was running like complete crap. Spitting back out the intake and making all kinds of noise.

I checked videos, resources, and talked to people on here as well as 2 ASE/Chrysler Diesel Technicians who have worked on the CRD (too bad they're not local to me) and surmised that when the turbo went apparently so did my rockers/lifters due to a timing belt slip/jump/gap probably due to the combination of the fact that it was overdue for service, worn, and the Turbo failed.

When I get the Rockers/Lifters out I'll post pictures, but I'm sure they're worn a LOT.

More to post after I see, but if I had followed the Aussie TB change, I was almost 2x overdue 100,000km = 62,000 miles x 2 = 124,000 miles, I was at 117,000....

That may be intrinsic to the problem...

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:53 am

TJ2 wrote:

The people I've actually met with CRD's are not having the problems I read about here.

It seems some newer forum members bought vehicles that weren't properly maintained and they're fixing problems created by PO's. It also seems like some members just like to constantly 'fix' their vehicles. Reminds me of the 'fix it 'til it's broke' school of mechanics.

Well said. I have been saying this for a long time. Seems to be the LOST way unfortunately. Everyone I have spoken with or met has had good success with the CRD. The ones that don't are always trying to "improve it" or "experiment with it" whether it be bigger filters, longer oil change intervals, different oils than those specified, etc. I am not saying everyone who does this will have an issue, however it does seem to be the pattern. I agree that the folks that are buying them used probably got a poorly maintained unit to begin with. I have said it before, but the other issue, which I know I will get criticism here, is how it is used and driven. Short trips kill diesels sooner. Diesels are made to be driven for long periods of time. Doing short trips once in a while won't hurt it, however, if you drive a couple miles, i.e. less than 10, a day with a diesel, you will likely see more trouble from wear. A diesel is not intended for this type of use. From what I have seen and heard, everyone with success has either left it alone and/or used it as a highway commuter. The higher mileage ones, even with "non specified" oils have reached high mileages without any incident. I have repaired, rebuilt, and owned many diesels, and this is the case with all of them... not just the CRD. Just my :2cents:

j_humph · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:40 pm

This is al great information, and I appreciate all the responses.

I just want to state that I did not intend to cause, create, or add to any hysteria by posing the question.

Here are the facts with my vehicle:
~130k miles ~ 210K km, so I'm not too far away from the 250K km that you know people are at now.
Timing belt + water pump was changed at 100K miles. Also at the same time did the serp belt+ tensioner, ad some other misc things. Stealership did the job for ~$1700. Ouch.

Glend, you are saying that down under your recommended tb change interval is 100K km/62K miles? That is a huge difference!
Is that what VMM actually recommends, or is that what people in your area have come to accept as the proper interval?

Unless I acquire the tools and learn to do this myself, this increased interval drastically increases the overall operating costs.

Now I am now looking at replacing the head gasket, which could cost anywhere from $1800-$2200, perhaps more if I go with the ARP studs.

I'm just doing the math now, but in addition to what I owe on the vehicle, it is starting to cost, on average, a lot more to keep this running than it would be to just go finance a new vehicle.

Glend · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:03 pm

j_humph wrote:

Glend, you are saying that down under your recommended tb change interval is 100K km/62K miles? That is a huge difference!
Is that what VMM actually recommends, or is that what people in your area have come to accept as the proper interval?

The timing belt & tensioner service interval for the KJ 2.5 and 2.8L VM CRD used by Chrysler Jeep Australia is Five Years or 100,000kms (which ever occurs first), and they change them at that mark on vehicles that they are maintaining through the dealer service network.

The timing belt & tensioner change interval in the KJ CRD Service and Warranty Handbook that came with my KJ when I bought it new from the dealer in 2007 (See note below on model year differences) also lists the timing belt change at Five Years or 100,00kms (which ever occurs first). That Service and Warranty Handbook was printed in Australia by Chrysler Jeep (Part # KJEEPSWH107).

IF you click on the table below it will zoom in enough to be viewed in larger print.

Interestingly, the 2007 version of the Operating Information Booklet (aka the Owners Manual) which was printed in the USA (81-426-07133), shows the TB interval as the US 100,000miles (or 160,000kms) - which we all accept locally as probably a clerical error.

I don't know what VM recommends, but would hope that they had some input to the service schedule. I suspect, being that it is a Euro (Italian) engine, that the interval would be 100,000kms, but have no proof that a simple clerical error is responsble for so much carnage in the US market.

Yes, people accept that as the proper interval (why not) its what is recommended. It also is a very common timing belt change interval in Australia for other manufacturers, my former Subaru had a 100,000km timing belt interval.

I have no further comment on the whole head gasket change thing, as I have never encountered a single case of that being required unless the head needed work as a result of a timing belt break (again usually due to ignoring the service interval).

Note: To help explain the 2007 printed document, while US domestic KJ production was halted with the 2006 model year, Export model production continued to the end of April 2007 when factory was shutdown for retooling. As model year change over is different here, the 2007 produced KJs were sold here as 2007 KJs even though there are none produced for the US market in that year. The KK did not enter the market here until the 2008 model year. According to my build sheet I have one of the last KJ CRDs, produced around the 29th of April 2007.

j_humph · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Glend wrote:

I don't know what VM recommends, but would hope that they had some input to the service schedule.

Yes, people accept that as the proper interval (why not) its what is recommended. It also is a very common timing belt change interval in Australia for other manufacturers, my former Subaru had a 100,000km timing belt interval.

I have no further comment on the whole head gasket change thing, as I have never encountered a single case of that being required unless the head needed work as a result of a timing belt break (again usually due to ignoring the service interval).

OK Glend, I was just pointing out the obvious question: why are you in Australia told to change the TB at 100K km, and we in the US are told 100K miles? My assumption is that vehicles would be extremely difficult to sell here in the US if it was known that there was going to be a $1700 maintenance bill every 62000 miles.

As to the head gasket, it is either failing or it isn't.
In my case, it is. And, I am not the only one with a failing head gasket based on other posts on this forum.
It is not hysteria.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:10 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

Glend

I've had first hand experience on this US versus the rest of the world saga on another vehicle, a 1984 VW Vanagon, I once owned. The waterboxer flat four engine in the US had sealing problems where the heads met the cylinders and there seemed to be no cure :dizzy:

Coolant was the prime suspect. Again the "rest of the world" had no such problems :banghead:

Joe

My syncro is leaking from the heads.

My weekender is leaking from the thermostat housing.

My Westy is leaking from somewhere above the spare.

Leaks leaks everywhere.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:33 pm

I've always been convinced that the number one problem in the US is the lack of trained maintenance techs -
small diesels are not common - especially at Jeep dealerships - so problems were never diagnosed properly to begin with.

and then add just a couple of tweaks for the US market.

the US EGR - causing the engine to overheat easier than the Australian/European versions?

That could be the issue with the warped/cracked heads.

and then the Timing belt moved from 100k KM to 100k miles - by the marketing department

it sure would explain a lot of problems.....

all speculation of course - just seems to fit.

UFO · **Posted:** Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:09 pm

I could check again, but I am fairly sure my 2005 owners manual specifies 100k mile timing belt change interval. If the vehicle makes it that far without incident, there should not be a consequence in the later interval that results in excess wear.

If I were to point to a single thing, it would be the massive amount of EGR due to US regulation. If so, I have not used my EGR for 70k miles now, changed the belt at 100k miles, and it's still working great (knock on wood).

I am also changing oil at the recommended 10k mile interval as well, with synthetic 5W-40 (Rotella). This is identical to what VW calls out on my 2001, and it has a 4 quart sump, not 7. We will see.

dkenny · **Posted:** Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:17 pm

I been wondering this since I first read this thread.

do people follow the shutdown/cooldown procedure?

do people let the EGT's cool to 400F or less?

does anyone with and EGT gauge have a feel for how long it typically takes to reach 400F..

why?
turbo failures..coked oil in the bearings? just wondering here..I drive a 5.9 cummins with and EGT gauge.and the time it takes varies..does it vary from 20sec to 3min on the Jeep?
are people not cooling down the turbos enough?

these are the only diesel made..it might be problem the variable vanes..but I cannot wrap my brain around why the vanes sticking kills the turbo seals?? I'm thinking stuck vanes would make the turbo work like a fixed vane. how much boost would depend on where its stuck.

sure a easy cure would be a cheap electric oil pump to circulate the oil until its cool enough..but what turbo diesel has that from the factory?

might this be a factor in the short US turbo life..I tend to think Americans rush everywhere..find the first place to park and turn it off..am I off base here?

-dkenny

crazyrunner33 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:31 pm

So far I'm at 225k miles (about 362k km) on the '06 US model, nothing major for repairs, only an alternator and the dealer replaced the turbo under warranty due to a misdiagnosis by the dealership. I've been running Rotella T 5W40 synthetic and only use paper filters. The timing belts on these things can handle 100k miles, didn't change the one in mine until 195k miles when we found out there was a timing belt in it. :oops:

The people I see who have the biggest issues with these and the VW TDI engines are the ones who baby them, this usually causes the vanes to stick which can cause drastically high drive pressure if stuck in the closed position. I baby the Jeep everywhere I go, but I make sure to take it to red line a few times a week to prevent the vanes from sticking.

Srytrucker · **Posted:** Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:41 pm

In Europe and rest of the world these engine are legendary and in us to quote a fellow member from another discussion :-

"My guess, and that is all that it is at this point, is that the US regs have caused the manufacturer to both increase the soot load on the engine, and decrease the ability of the lube oil to manage those soot levels, resulting in increased wear on the motor not seen elsewhere.:"

So if your are like me ALL IN, then a workable solution besides replacing the damaged head or rockers/lifters etc, would be to get a GDE tune (to block EGR) & install a good by pass filtration system to clean all the soot & mess inside our engines.

bigjl · **Joined:** Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:38 pm **Posts:** 50

Just signed up as I am researching the US Liberty for use in Ghana.

I also rent out a London Taxi which has the 2.5 version of the VM engine so I thought I might be able to add some extra meat to the thread.

The 2.5 VM in the Taxi had a 72k cambelt interval till 2011, then it was extended to 84k.

The service interval was 10k till 2011 and then it was extended to 12k miles.

Oil selection is a choice of A3/B3/B5 0w40, 5w40 or more commonly 10w40. CI 4 is also specified. As is oils meeting ACEA spec B5 but I have never seen one in the required -w40 weight so best to ignore that anomoly.

There are no common issue with rockers in Taxi service but many do suffer with bottom end failure.

They have a different EGR to the Liberty and UK Cherokee however.

I would suspect that due to the higher sulphur content of US fuel, apart from California, might be causing the oil to sheer down quickly and the TBN to be exhausted quickly.

One specialist Taxi garage in Essex has had no engine failures with the many vehicles they maintain but they also only ever use full synth oil, not sure which one, but it is a Q8 5w40.

A fair few of those that had engine failures were serviced by main agents that used semi synthetic oil.

Despite mostly urban use there is no severe service OCI specified for these vehicles and I suspect they need full synth oil for longevity or much reduced OCI's.

I never left the semi or synth blend in there for more than 8k and my one does lots of miles on dual carriageways due to were the driver lives, which I think gives the oil and engine a slightly easier time.

I have used mostly synthetic oil but have used semi synth for short OCI's and a synth blend HM recently to see if it would stop a minor oil leak.

The oil filter is fitted direct to the block in the Taxi and a real pig to change, you have to undo part of the steering!

There is just over 180k on an '07 vehicle.

I am going to fit a remote oil filter and then I will either continue with the Bosch filters I have been using or get some Amsoil or K&N filters ordered.

A bypass kit is also a possibility.

It is my plan to get as close to 300k out of the original engine as I can.

And then later this year or next year get over to the US to buy a CRD Liberty which I shall use in the UK for a while then ship to Ghana.

Hope I haven't gone on a bit.

I think the VM engine is underrated but also does need very good levels of maintenance.

Currently mine has its first ever fill of Mobil 1 0w40 New Life (SN) and it runs very well on that oil indeed.

How long can the VM428 engine be expected to last?

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