LOST JEEPS
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

Diesel Liberty, to buy or not to buy?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65497		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  MrMopar22 [ Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Diesel Liberty, to buy or not to buy?
I'm new to the Liberty world; this site has been very insightful, thank you.

I was really excited when I found they made a diesel version. We do a lot of driving towing a 5X12 enclosed single axle trailer to different balloon events; the liberty and trailer are a great fit together. The down side I've noticed is the poor fuel economy w/ or w/o the trailer, so the diesel sounded better.

I've done some homework, but have a lot of questions about them before I commit to buying one. So hopefully there are folks on here that can help me.

A friend of mine has one so I got to drive it and look it all over, my questions are:

It's claimed to have a 5 speed auto, but no matter how many times I started from a stop, I can only count 4 speeds and a converter locking. When I pushed the O/D off button it runs the same RPM as my 3.7 does at 70. His is a 2005, is there a difference between 05 and 06? Are they really 5 speeds? My main concern is that with the overdrive off it's turning 3200 RPM when you tow.

Who makes the engine? I looked and couldn't find a manufacture name stamped anywhere. What's the longevity on those? Are they a cheaply built high maintenance? Any pump or injector problems?
I heard they have a timing belt issues and parts are big $$$$$ and hard to get. Is that true?

I guess I'm looking for peoples opinion if it will work for what I will primarily use it for, towing a small trailer.
Author:  Hoosier CRD [ Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diesel Liberty, to buy or not to buy?
MrMopar22 wrote:
Are they really 5 speeds?
Who makes the engine?
What's the longevity on those?
Are they a cheaply built high maintenance?
Any pump or injector problems?
I heard they have a timing belt issues and parts are big $$$$$ and hard to get. Is that true?
I guess I'm looking for peoples opinion if it will work for what I will primarily use it for, towing a small trailer.


Lemme see if I can be of help here: (Other members, please correct me where I am incorrect)

1) Yes, there are 5 speeds-technically. When you shift/drop down into the passing gear, third(?), the ratio is different than the third(?) gear you have when the transmission shifts normally.
2) The engine is made by a company in Italy-Vancini and Martelli Motors (aka VM Motori) It is actually on the top of the engine if you take off the big, plastic cover. This brand of engine (size and cylinder unknown to me at this point) will be going into the Jeep Cherokee soon, 2013 (?) This brand of engine is also currently being used in the little black taxicabs running around London, England.
3) Longevity is relative. Given proper maintenance, they could last up to 300,000 or more. We routinely have members here that are at the 100k mile marker, myself included.
4) Barring poor maintenance, i.e. fuel filters, I'm not aware of any injector pump issues to this point.
5) Injectors have been know to cause problems, refer to #4. Also good fuel and fuel additives, e.g. Stanadyne Performance and Lubricity, help all things fuel related in terms of increased lubricity, moisture containment.
6) The timing belt is replaced at 100k miles. Any mileage after that without this service is on borrowed time. You DO NOT want the timing belt to break. A complete timing belt job, i.e. belt (timing and serpentine), tensioner, idler pulleys, thermostat and water pump can cost in the neighborhood of $1600 parts and labor. The hardest part to get with this is someone that has the special tools and specific knowledge to work on our little mongrels. If you are unable to locate a good shop/technician, then, yes this can be a real headache. Unless of course, you work on it yourself and feel up to the task (many here work on theirs)
7) I guess this falls under maintenance. Turbos can and do fail. They are expensive to buy and replace. Using the proper oil is critical. As is shutdown routine.

If you are expecting to get in this Jeep, drive and maintain it like a gasser, then you are in for a rude awakening and this is likely not the vehicle for you. Depending on where you live, sourcing diesel can also be a problem. As stated earlier, many CRD owners here work on their Jeeps and are more than willing to get their hands dirty. This forum is an excellent resource for us that purpose. Like you, many others have asked these same (or similiar) questions and have received the same response(s). The key is being honest with yourself and your willingness to learn and interact with your Jeep. Hope this helps.

FWIW,

Hoosier CRD
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diesel Liberty, to buy or not to buy?
I can add a bit more:
1. yes it's a 5 speed. It's the standard Chrysler 545RFE transmission used on a number of vehicles - just google 545rfe for details.
2. VM has been around since 1947 and their diesel engine has been installed in a host of vehicles over the years including many linked to companies that sell vehicles in the US. However, given the US market rather irrational "dislike" for light duty diesel vehicles most of the VM engines are in vehicles outside the US market. Again Google the company for details.
3. Ditto
4 and 5 - proper maintence is critical and that includes the use of proper fluids (oil, antifreeze, transmission fluid, etc) combined with regular change intervals. Use of incorrect fluids or long change intervals, oil in particular, can cause problems but that's true of any vehicle.
6. IMHO the timing belt is not an "issue" at least no more an issue than on any other vehicle with a timing belt. As noted it MUST be replaced at the proper interval as this motor is a "interference" engine, just like most if not all diesels, so failure of timing causes valve rocker damage (a designed failure mode to avoid piston damage). Timing belt job cost varies radically depending on what's done and by whom for a DIY cost of $75 to replace the TB only assuming all other spinning stuff with bearings is solid and about 5 hrs labor with the proper tools to ca. $1,500 to pay to have the complete job done including replacing all that spinning stuff including the water pump which is not particularly out of line with similar jobs on other similar engines.

Parts availability can be an issue if you need a part "right now" given that the vehicle is 6-7 years old and not that many were sold in the US but they are fairly common outside the US. Keep in mind that the parts issue is strictly limited to the diesel engine and directly related drive train (ex. diesel front CV is different from gas), fuel, and ignition system parts. Most everything else is the same as any gas Liberty.

If you are looking for a vehicle that has significant towing ability and still gets good mpg and are willing to get your hands dirty from time to time go for it.

I'd suggest you read Sam's NOOB guide for more details on the ins and outs of the vehicle.
Author:  WolverineFW [ Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diesel Liberty, to buy or not to buy?
The 45RFE was introduced in the Jeep Grand Cherokee in 1999, it is notable for including three planetary gearsets rather than the two normally used in a 4-speed automatic. It also features three multiple disc input clutches, three multiple disc holding clutches, and a dual internal filter system (one primary filter for transmission sump, one for the fluid cooler return system). In the 45RFE applications four gears are utilized, with a different (1.50:1 rather than 1.67:1) second gear to increase versatility when downshifting. In 545RFE usage, an extra taller overdrive ratio is also used. Chrysler decided to refer to it as a "multi-speed automatic".

The 45RFE was produced at the Indiana Transmission plant in Kokomo, Indiana. It was normally paired with the 4.7 L PowerTech V8.

The 45RFE later became the 5-speed 545RFE.

Gear Ratios:
1st 3.00:1
2nd 1.67:1
2nd Prime 1.50:1
3rd 1.00:1
4th 0.75:1
Reverse 3.00:1
545RFE only:
5th 0.67:1


It's a 5 speed, but it actually has two different second gear ratio's, one for upshifting and one for downshifting.
Author:  MrMopar22 [ Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diesel Liberty, to buy or not to buy?
I have lots of experience with diesels; we farm full time and I've wrenched on the big 3 for a living (Cat, Cummins, and Detroit, not GM, Ford, and Chrysler). I was a little leery about a foreign diesel. We had a skid loader with a Japanese (Issourima sp?) diesel that came apart on us and parts were non-existent :dizzy: . We ended up having to order a reman engine from the dealer for big $$$ and I didn't want that experience with a vehicle.

Can you get the TCM reprogrammed to only shift out of the first over-drive for towing?
Author:  DieselJeepLuvr [ Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diesel Liberty, to buy or not to buy?
I tow a 19ft 1974 Starcraft (boat) with 3 fat drunken and obnoxious fishing buddies (probably 2500-3000#) with mine in overdrive always. On the freeway I can set the cruise at 69mph and it will maintain it up and down hills flawlessly. I've got almost 100K on mine with Zero issues (knock on wood!). Of course I drive quite conservatively (no hard accelerating) allowing the diesels torque to do it's job and I will get 20mpg (winter diesel) to 24mpg (summer diesel) towing like this.
Author:  dirtmover [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diesel Liberty, to buy or not to buy?
MrMopar22 wrote:
I was really excited when I found they made a diesel version....

....The down side I've noticed is the poor fuel economy w/ or w/o the trailer, so the diesel sounded better.


This was exactly my feeling when I first read about the CRD back in 2005. Having been brought up on diesels in the UK I was eager to get behind the wheel of one again. I bought one new in 2006. Big mistake! Out of all the vehicles I've owned this one has had the most issues and design flaws by a long shot.

Don't get sucked in by the fuel economy claims. It's not as good as many make out. Over the 6 years I've owned the higher average diesel cost coupled with higher maintenance cost has all but wiped out any fuel economy savings.


MrMopar22 wrote:
I have lots of experience with diesels; we farm full time and I've wrenched on the big 3 for a living (Cat, Cummins, and Detroit, not GM, Ford, and Chrysler). I was a little leery about a foreign diesel. We had a skid loader with a Japanese (Issourima sp?) diesel that came apart on us and parts were non-existent :dizzy: . We ended up having to order a reman engine from the dealer for big $$$ and I didn't want that experience with a vehicle.


The fact that you can appear to have the know how to work on this vehicle will be a big bonus since many mechanics, dealers included, will not touch this vehicle. Also, you are correct to be leery about a foreign engine. While not quite as bad as your Japanese engine parts availability can be a bit spotty. Be prepared to to be out of action, for a few months in extreme cases, as parts you would normally expect to be stock are on national back order.

Don't make this your only vehicle!
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/