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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:33 pm 
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I don't think I've ever heard of anyone installing the studs first.


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:37 pm 
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Steve777 wrote:
Getting ready to install a new HG and head on my project CRD and have ARP studs. Thanks for the description/steps here. I did have one question though:

The instructions which came with the studs suggested installing the studs in the block, then fitting the head over the studs. Seems to me that would make for a harder alignment when lifting the head on than necessary. I would think that one should clean/dry the stud holes. Fit the HG and head. Then install the studs using the procedure here.

Just curious to get feedback from those of you who have done this, which is the easier method, install studs first, or place head first?

I can tell you with absolute certainty, that if you install all the studs first, you will never get the head to fit down around them.
If you are assembling the engine removed from the vehicle, installing perhaps 2 studs might help keep the head aligned and possibly prevent lifters falling over, but more than that would be a pointless increase in difficulty.
With the engine in the car, there is just not enough room between the block deck and the wiper gallery / cabin air inlet wall.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:14 am 
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I have on occasion used two studs as guides, but as was stated - you will NEVER get the head to fit with all 18 studs installed in the block first. Just don't do that.

Follow the procedures from here, not the ARP printed instructions - those directions are for VW engines or any other engines that the specific kit fits.
There are two locating dowels (the big circles that hold the head gasket) right above the head gasket, but using two studs as alignment pins is helpful. Be sure to spray down the block, gasket (both sides), and head underside with the copper sealer, and wait at least 5 minutes for it to get tacky before installation.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:06 pm 
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geordi wrote:
I have on occasion used two studs as guides, but as was stated - you will NEVER get the head to fit with all 18 studs installed in the block first. Just don't do that.

Follow the procedures from here, not the ARP printed instructions - those directions are for VW engines or any other engines that the specific kit fits.
There are two locating dowels (the big circles that hold the head gasket) right above the head gasket, but using two studs as alignment pins is helpful. Be sure to spray down the block, gasket (both sides), and head underside with the copper sealer, and wait at least 5 minutes for it to get tacky before installation.



I followed the instructions on this site (sans copper gasket seal because the gasket I used said "install dry do not use sealants" right on the thing, I've been told this is new tech with the material, don't know) and my head is working perfect. I didn't use alignment studs for the rocker cover and was worried sick about a rocker slipping off, then saw a post about using a couple alignment studs for the rocker cover install, doh.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Glad your install is working. Hope you took the opportunity to have the head verified by a machine shop and installed new valves.

As for the "install dry" on the head gasket, that rubbery coating on the gasket is a type of sealer, but if there are any remnants of the old seal or scratches from removal of the old seal... That new VERY THIN factory coating may or may not be sufficient. The copper spray is designed to work in concert with that coating, and has not shown itself to be any issue on any of the engines I have assembled with it. Much of the information on this board has been developed in concert with manufacturers of the parts that we are upgrading, and while I would not expect them to alter their documentation just for one group of end users, the procedures here may offer better performance than just what is from the parts documentation.

ARP for a specific example has many instructions with the stud kits - those directions are NOT sufficient for our CRDs, and the only approved torque numbers are 130 lb-ft for positions 1-10, and 120 lb-ft for positions 11-18. I do not recall what the ARP directions state for final torque, but our numbers aren't it. Following the procedures here is simply a way to arrive at the "best practices" result, although other options may also be sufficient.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:51 pm 
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I am new to the forum and the joy of crd ownership. I have a 2005 liberty which I recently bought. After a week of driving I noticed a coolant loss and devoured as much info as I could on this web site as I could. After pressure testing the cooling system and with the glow plugs out I could see coolant spray out of the number 2 jug. Long story short I ended up buying a recon head and new exhaust valves. I bought gaskets and water pump and studs from ID . The studs are listed as the new 2018 version and longer than the VW studs ? The studs when bottomed out in the block even after running a bottoming tap and blowing out any chips still had about 5 threads protruding above the nut. I did not find this to be a problem until putting the cam and intake unit on. It would not pull down to mate with the gasket. I removed the housing and upon inspection I noticed an imprint of the top of the studs on the exhaust cam bearing support webs above the studs 11-14. I ended up removing them one by one and grinding them to 5.85" in length so that the nut was flush with the top of the stud before re-torquing. This allowed the cam and intake casting to pull down flat. I have not finished assembly but I wanted my experience known if any one else is in this situation.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:40 pm 
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I am answering mainly to make sure you don't feel ignored but have a thought.
First I have replaced three CRD headbolts with ARPs on three crds so far with another planned soon but I have only used the vw ARP studs
One thing comes to mind that could cause what you describe. If you used a head gasket that was not as thick as the original that is a one hole with original 2 or 3 hole etc. , or similarly if the head had been shaved enough to reduce thickness more than allowed or required going with a thicker head gasket due to degree of machining you may not have been told this.

I am not sure what the length of the VW headbolt is but I have some here and when I get a chance I can mic them. IIRCC there were at least 3 threads showing above the nuts on some of my installations but that doesn't mean much. It will be interesting to see what others have to say. Regardless of gasket thickness or machining its the protrusion above the head that could interfere with the valve cover etc. But now I wonder if you may get valve interference after reassembly if it is from less thickness of headgasket and head combination.

No matter what the cause i feel for you .

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:24 pm 
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I understand the head gasket is a no hole which was the thickness of the original. I carefully measured the piston popup as outlined in the engine manual and came up with the proper measurement for a no hole or thin gasket. The head that I got had been surfaced but it still maintained the min spec in the service manual. This is a clip from the add in ID s web site. It appears that this is a new kit is possibly different from the ones you have used I can not say



ARP Head Stud Kit (Liberty CRD)
ARP
OEM Part Number: IDP4044
Manufacturer Number: IDP4044

** 2018 UPDATED DESIGN **

We updated this design to include 18 studs that are all the same length. We also use studs that are not undercut to increase strength.

Set of 18 ARP head studs, nuts and washers for the Jeep Liberty CRD.
This kit includes:

18 x ARP2000 studs that can fully bottom inside the block for easier installation, especially important with the higher torque inner bolts.

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in tank fuel pump, egr block off plate new glow plugs new manifold pressure sensor
new turbo modulator filter new turbo re-manufactured head with new exhaust valves
ARP studs new lifters and rockers new water pump re-manufactured injectors timing and serpentine belts
list still growing


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:32 pm 
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I would contact IDparts to resolve the issue.
There may have been a mixup and you were sent the wrong studs.

I seem to remember a similar issue posted months ago.
New type studs were hitting something near the exhaust cam.
I don’t remember what the solution was.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:43 pm 
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cts1950 wrote:
I understand the head gasket is a no hole which was the thickness of the original. I carefully measured the piston popup as outlined in the engine manual and came up with the proper measurement for a no hole or thin gasket. The head that I got had been surfaced but it still maintained the min spec in the service manual. This is a clip from the add in ID s web site. It appears that this is a new kit is possibly different from the ones you have used I can not say



ARP Head Stud Kit (Liberty CRD)
ARP
OEM Part Number: IDP4044
Manufacturer Number: IDP4044

** 2018 UPDATED DESIGN **

We updated this design to include 18 studs that are all the same length. We also use studs that are not undercut to increase strength.

Set of 18 ARP head studs, nuts and washers for the Jeep Liberty CRD.
This kit includes:

18 x ARP2000 studs that can fully bottom inside the block for easier installation, especially important with the higher torque inner bolts.


See, I got a set of equal length studs too, in May, but the 4-5 (can't remember, not that far into re assembly yet) are threaded further.. so they can be screwed into the block deeper. and the final 'stick out' will be proper height. Edit; There are 4 of the longer threaded studs.
I went and measured all the block holes. For all practical purposes, they are 1.53- 1.54 inch deep. This for 'usable' threads, not the tapered bottom.

My studs (regular length threads) won't come close to 'bottoming out'. They have just short of 1.100 inch of rolled threads.... so 'forcing' them in to a 1.5 inch deep hole, thinking they are bottoming out is not cool. Even adding in .250 depth of counter bore, it's still going to be just short of bottoming out (run out of threads) All you are doing is putting tension on the block deck by 'wedging' the stud's non threaded surface into the threaded part of the block. The holes are counter bored, so the tension probably won't be felt across the actual face of the deck.
My extended thread studs, come close to actually bottoming out... let me do the math:
These all measure 5.754 inch, (5 3/4 for practical purposes) The 'short' threads measure 1.1 inch, the 'long' threads measure 1.35 inch. Add in the counter bore of .250, for a total of 1.60 inch, and those would probably bottom out before the threads ran out.
So, I plan on running them down just so a little tension is felt, then 'hold' them from going any further when torqueing the nut.
Those 4 'special' studs go into the position where clearance in the cam area is needed.. So they'll get screwed into the block deeper in those places.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:27 am 
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I found this post that describes what I ran into almost exactly. with the exception by grinding the studs on the bottom allowed the stud to drop in deeper so the stud was flush with the nut head. I was not excited with having the studs bottomed out based on other engineering reports I have read that it was best to have the stud turned out some from the bottom. But I took the info from ID to be gospel.


WHITBREAD STUDS: Contact Matt if already bought.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=87548&p=919553&hilit=WHITBREAD+STUDS%3A+Contact+Matt+if+already+bought.#p919553

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:36 am 
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lol.. got to thinking about these 'whitbred' studs; I was not aware of the first run being improper!

My guess the ones I got are the 'updated' version, All equal length, but 4 have more threads on the end that screws into the block further.

Here is my head with the 2 different studs with the washer and nut spun down so there is 1 thread showing;
Image

now, flip the head over, and measure how much stud is showing, available to screw into the block; I get 1.43 inch. (without gasket) With gasket (.059) Should be 1.36 inch give or take.
Image
Looks like mine will indeed screw in deep enough, (those 'special' 4 studs) and have minimal 1 thread sticking above the nut for clearance. I say 'minimal' because 1 thread showing is kinda the industry standard for making sure the 'starter threads' (smaller diameter) is completely through the nut.. and ensures all threads that engage the nut are 'full size'

As you can see in the treaded end of the studs, the 14 with shorter length threads may or may not bottom out before the non threaded area contacts the block threads. I'm not worried, in those positions, there can be a lot more than 1 thread sticking above the nut if necessary. My concern was to make sure all available threads are engaged, and yet still have clearance for the cam cover. All looks good.
The ONE caveat to Whitbreds 'fix', is how they accomplished this; They simply 'cut' the threads.
Rolled threads are tempered after rolling. Well, the whole stud is tempered. Additional machine work AFTER this process (cut threads) :roll: may or may not be 'cool'.. Time will tell, and I guess i'll find out!!

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80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:55 am 
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rancherman wrote:
lol.. got to thinking about these 'whitbred' studs; I was not aware of the first run being improper!
My guess the ones I got are the 'updated' version, All equal length, but 4 have more threads on the end that screws into the block further.
Here is my head with the 2 different studs with the washer and nut spun down so there is 1 thread showing;
now, flip the head over, and measure how much stud is showing, available to screw into the block; I get 1.43 inch. (without gasket) With gasket (.059) Should be 1.36 inch give or take.
Looks like mine will indeed screw in deep enough, (those 'special' 4 studs) and have minimal 1 thread sticking above the nut for clearance. I say 'minimal' because 1 thread showing is kinda the industry standard for making sure the 'starter threads' (smaller diameter) is completely through the nut.. and ensures all threads that engage the nut are 'full size'

As you can see in the treaded end of the studs, the 14 with shorter length threads may or may not bottom out before the non threaded area contacts the block threads. I'm not worried, in those positions, there can be a lot more than 1 thread sticking above the nut if necessary. My concern was to make sure all available threads are engaged, and yet still have clearance for the cam cover. All looks good.
The ONE caveat to Whitbreds 'fix', is how they accomplished this; They simply 'cut' the threads.
Rolled threads are tempered after rolling. Well, the whole stud is tempered. Additional machine work AFTER this process (cut threads) :roll: may or may not be 'cool'.. Time will tell, and I guess i'll find out!!

What is the measured space required in the valve/intake cover verses actual stud height installed and torqued down for the areas of concern? :roll:
Image

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:56 am 
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I have discovered that this is still a solution in search of a problem - and that the running changes from both IDparts and Whitbread are still causing issues in their own way.

Whitbread is "cutting" the threads, which ARP has issued a hard NO to. This is not a good idea at all, as it severely weakens the stud above the original rolled threads. If there is to be a breakage and failure, it will likely happen in this area and make the stub of the stud (stuck way down in the block then) impossible to remove.

IDparts is using rolled threads from ARP, however the studs STILL have the exact same problem as discovered in this topic and by myself on a recent install.

I say this is a solution in search of a problem because there are more than 50 sets of the VW stud kits installed in CRDs by me personally (and far FAR more than that by owners) all running around without head failures. The longer studs DO NOT ADD ANY STRENGTH as the thread engagement is already longer than the stud is wide. Once the engagement is equal to the diameter of the fastener, maximum strength has been reached. Engaging more threads will not add any strength, only change the installed height. This can be seen with the nuts - They are sized to be the same height as the diameter of the fastener they engage, and longer nuts would not change the strength relationship.

Now, about the head gasket thickness. The difference in thickness from the no-hole to the two-hole is 20 thousands. That isn't much at all, but if your measurements aren't ultra precise, then pistons can meet valves. The sealing surface of the gasket is the wide flange around the top of the piston liner, NOT the ring that protrudes from the inside edge of that liner. A gasket that is too thin will not compress fully if that raised ring in the liner contacts the bottom of the head, and the result will be a head gasket leak. In all vehicles, I install the two-hole gasket because that is what was advised by a VM engine builder - and in my own research I have come to agree with that advice. This will NOT change the compression ratio of the engine in the slightest, but using a gasket that is too thin CAN AND HAS resulted in the work being done over because of leaks. I don't know why the factory originally decided on multiple sizes of gasket, but that was a poor decision at the time.

Not a single engine that I have assembled with the VW ARP studs and the two hole gasket has experienced a subsequent head gasket failure, and while I agree that I am presenting a small sample size... I have assembled them all exactly the same way. They had a failure previously, and now they do not, and have not since. I trust in the research that those who developed the ARP studs with the ARP engineers came up with, and have added my own research to that process to result with what we have today. It works, and it can be trusted.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:32 pm 
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Thanks everyone for posting your experiences.

I worked with ARP to custom cut a batch of these that were the right length with enough threads on the block end to deal with this scenario. I double measured and checked on a test motor specifically to avoid this scenario. I thought I had fixed the "problem".

I don't disagree with geordi on this being a "solution in search of a problem" - I have always agreed that the TDI studs were the ideal solution as they had more than enough thread to do their job. I would still get calls weekly from upset owners that their studs were too long, and, on more than one occasion was angrily cursed at for selling an inferior product. I thought having a "proper length" stud would be a better customer experience.

To date we've sold many dozen sets of the new style studs. As I said, these worked in my test install but I know geordi has had problems with two engines in a row now. If anyone here would like me to send them a shorter TDI stud for those 4 locations I'm happy to just PM me your order number.

I'm going to do a customer outreach to see how many others had problems/didn't have problems and I'll revise the kit as needed.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:38 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
rancherman wrote:
lol.. got to thinking about these 'whitbred' studs; I was not aware of the first run being improper!
My guess the ones I got are the 'updated' version, All equal length, but 4 have more threads on the end that screws into the block further.
Here is my head with the 2 different studs with the washer and nut spun down so there is 1 thread showing;
now, flip the head over, and measure how much stud is showing, available to screw into the block; I get 1.43 inch. (without gasket) With gasket (.059) Should be 1.36 inch give or take.
Looks like mine will indeed screw in deep enough, (those 'special' 4 studs) and have minimal 1 thread sticking above the nut for clearance. I say 'minimal' because 1 thread showing is kinda the industry standard for making sure the 'starter threads' (smaller diameter) is completely through the nut.. and ensures all threads that engage the nut are 'full size'

As you can see in the treaded end of the studs, the 14 with shorter length threads may or may not bottom out before the non threaded area contacts the block threads. I'm not worried, in those positions, there can be a lot more than 1 thread sticking above the nut if necessary. My concern was to make sure all available threads are engaged, and yet still have clearance for the cam cover. All looks good.
The ONE caveat to Whitbreds 'fix', is how they accomplished this; They simply 'cut' the threads.
Rolled threads are tempered after rolling. Well, the whole stud is tempered. Additional machine work AFTER this process (cut threads) :roll: may or may not be 'cool'.. Time will tell, and I guess i'll find out!!

What is the measured space required in the valve/intake cover verses actual stud height installed and torqued down for the areas of concern? :roll:
Image


Good question. I forgot to ask the guys who've installed them; How many threads can be 'showing' above the nut, and still have clearance??

As long as I have at least one FULL thread sticking up above the nut, on those longer threaded studs.. but if things get 'tight' in the cam cover.... say with 3-4 threads showing.. I'd like to know too!!

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:09 pm 
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yeah, I wasn't trying to find a problem to a solution, or 'reinvent the wheel'.. I only wanted to see if my whitbred supplied studs would indeed work or not (without cutting or grinding)
After doing the measuring, and math, I found that they will indeed work.
Full engagement of threads into block, (good) and those 4 studs will have minimal 'stick out' for clearance issues with the cam cover. And yet maintain at least a 1 thread above nut margin.

Just wanted to verify if the kit I got was one of the earlier, "needing modification" type kits... or was it the updated one.

Now, Whitbred's solution of CUTTING additional threads beyond the rolled threads on those 4 studs, for deeper block engagement will need to pass muster. I may chicken out.

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80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Two threads above the nut will fit. Four+ may not. Do not fully bottom / lock the stud where it stops, you must back it off a half turn to prevent it from possibly side-loading the head as you torque the nuts. All pressure must be against the threads evenly.

I have pictures here of what the studs looked like on the last install here:

https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code ... DHx8mHT3s7

With the studs un-cut, the valve cover did not fit. Removing the top 1/8"-1/4" or so may have been more than needed, but now it fits solid. This was done after the studs were installed and torqued, not a procedure I would recommend.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:33 pm 
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Measured the clearances this afternoon on the lands or webs of the intake/valve cover on the engine I have. There are four studs that can be a problem if the top of the stud sets higher than the available clearance. They are the four outside studs on the exhaust side of the engine. Locations 11-14 on the second diagram below.

The clearance is slightly different between the four webs on the engine I have, I am only showing just the smallest clearance measured and it may vary slightly between different engines. The other three webs had slightly more clearance, about ~0.010 thousands more.
If the top of the stud sets higher than the measurement shown below, then you will more than likely have a problem getting the valve cover to seat and seal properly.

Get a dial or vernier caliper out and measure the height of the top of the stud, once it has been torqued, above the mating faces on the top of the head where the valve cover mates, and then using a straight edge across the mating face of the valve cover, measure the amount of clearance you have for the stud at each land/web and then do the math. (X-Y= available space) Any number higher than the available space calculation is a problem!

Simple mathematics, anything that measures more than ~ 0.570 on this engine is going to hit and not allow the valve cover to bolt down and seal properly!

Edit: Forgot to include the thickness of the valve cover gasket, which will add a few thousandths to the available clearance of the head stud! Used gasket measured 0.022

:idea: A thought, why not just grind out a few thousands out of the lands/webs of the valve cover to gain a little extra clearance rather than cutting off the top of the studs? Seems like it would be a much better solution! The lands do not appear to be a critical load bearing web and would never miss a mere few thousands.

Image

Image

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Last edited by WWDiesel on Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Now I am as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. It is too late for me to change what I have already put together this weekend. All I can do is hope by using copper coat on the gasket surfaces the head gasket will hold. I really appreciate the professionalism and the sharing of info on this forum, much to be learned. I debated with myself about going with the thick head gasket but thinking it was important to match what had been installed before hand. I was uncomfortable about bottoming the studs out based on a report from another stud manufacture that it was best practice to have the stud floating so that the twisting of the stud would not affect a accurate torquing. I mistakenly took ID's add to have been the approved method from ARP. I will have to keep my fingers crossed. I have had some experience working on 2 stroke gm diesels ,rebuilding in-frame on a marine 8v 92 and a 4 71 much simpler engines. I currently drive a restored 67 Jeepster with a Isuzu 4jb1-t which got me looking at the Liberty crd as 2nd jeep.

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Bought 2005 Liberty 207,000 miles June 2018
in tank fuel pump, egr block off plate new glow plugs new manifold pressure sensor
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ARP studs new lifters and rockers new water pump re-manufactured injectors timing and serpentine belts
list still growing


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