It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:23 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 377 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:43 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 393
Location: north central Nebraska
cts1950 wrote:
Now I am as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. It is too late for me to change what I have already put together this weekend. All I can do is hope by using copper coat on the gasket surfaces the head gasket will hold. I really appreciate the professionalism and the sharing of info on this forum, much to be learned. I debated with myself about going with the thick head gasket but thinking it was important to match what had been installed before hand. I was uncomfortable about bottoming the studs out based on a report from another stud manufacture that it was best practice to have the stud floating so that the twisting of the stud would not affect a accurate torquing. I mistakenly took ID's add to have been the approved method from ARP. I will have to keep my fingers crossed. I have had some experience working on 2 stroke gm diesels ,rebuilding in-frame on a marine 8v 92 and a 4 71 much simpler engines. I currently drive a restored 67 Jeepster with a Isuzu 4jb1-t which got me looking at the Liberty crd as 2nd jeep.


As long as you haven't milled the block, which increases piston 'stick out' (COMPARED TO THE BLOCK, NOT LINER, liner 'height' is set separately) You'll be absolutely fine with running the Head gasket Thickness it originally came with.

Honestly, I completely fail to see the reasoning behind 'going with a thicker gasket'. For solving head sealing issues.
Our head gaskets are FLAT. They are Parallel. It won't make a skiff of difference if the gasket was 1 inch thick. or a mere no hole thick. How much the liner sticks UP and bites into the HG is the ONLY issue here!!

Do not think that a steel shim gasket will 'conform' as a fibrous gasket will Sure, that thin layer of sealant (either the original layer, or the added copper kote) will help with extreme tiny imperfections.. But a steel gasket will not 'make up' for any larger imperfections. regardless of how thick it is.
The raised part of the liner, NOT 'area a', (see attached pic) but inboard, does come close, but even the thinnest no hole gasket still gives ample clearance to the head. No reason to suspect contact, unless somebody forgot to clean off the carbon from that ring!!
This pic shows the 'imprint' of the liner's 'bite' transferred through the head gasket, onto the head.Image
It's basically 2 lines. the inner line is the actual edge of the gasket. the Outer line represents the outside diameter of the liner.
Those 2 lines define the area 'a' as shown in the pic below. Yes, that 'imprint' can be felt. That area on the hg was also devoid of any of the original 'rubbery' type sealant. The head gasket was 'shiny' on both side, within those 2 lines.
It isn't hard to see how the original 'bite' has lost preload... between all the imprinting, and the loss of thickness in the most crucial area of the head gasket..

Various thickness of HG's are for ONE thing. To maintain a certain distance of the tops of pistons, and the valves, and yet maintain a certain amount of chamber volume @tdc. All the tuning algorithms are based on 'X' cylinder temp, at X pressure, a X degrees of crank position. Changing up the combustion volume will sway how hot, how quickly, and how complete the injected fuel burns.
We don't have knock sensors, or exhaust sniffers to adjust our tune. It's all wired based on coolant temp, ambient air, and intake pressure.. The computer has no way of knowing if the combustion chamber has been altered. All it knows is there 'should' be x amount of heat from compressed air, and the amount of fuel should respond accordingly when the crank is at 'x' degrees of rotation. Granted, the thicker HG will probably not alter how all this works, on a percentage basis.. I can't see how it wouldn't affect it 'some'. .004 inch difference isn't much!!! each gasket 'jump' in thickness increases chamber volume by .044 cubic inch.

A 'sealed' cylinder, with removable liners, is all based on how much BITE the liner has on the HG.
I modified this FSM pic to fully show what I'm talking about.
The head gasket actually goes over the top of the liner. Area 'a'. This pic shows the liner's shims are missing, so that is the reason for the negative height. This is only for measuring purposes. The liner is actually supposed to sit between 'level' (0.000) to a +0.002 Positive height.
So, when the liner is either 'level-to-positive height' that 'bite' at 'area a' is the actual seal keeping combustion gasses in the cylinder. When that 'bite' is lost, the first place high compression goes is down along the liner bore... straight into the coolant. Those 'shims' are NOT seals, and are easily compromised.





Image

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:48 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 7157
Location: Central GA
Very good writeup Rancherman! :D
:?: A simple solution on this head stud problem would be to come up with a maximum allowable overall length for the studs and post it.
That way a person could measure the studs they have before installing them into the four locations that could possibly contact the valve cover and cause a problem long before they install them.

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:31 pm 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:12 pm
Posts: 2505
Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
At the risk of oversimplifying a complicated issue:

I used the original ARP (2x10) VW stud solution.
There were no issues installing them.
There have been no issues since.

I know ARP's are more expensive than the recent solutions, but you get a product that installs without issues, performs without issues, and you get 2 spares to boot. It's worth a little extra to not deal with products with issues, some known, possibly some unknown at this time. Product development is expensive. By the time you get a product equal or close to the original ARP solution, it will most likely cost equal or close as well.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:34 pm 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:48 am
Posts: 12
Now armed wit 20/20 hind sight and all the input since my first post this is my thoughts on my problem. The new style studs from ID have plenty of rolled threads on the bottom of the stud to bottom out in the block without thread binding I would buy them again. But being warned about the problem of studs 11-14 I would do the following.

step 1. install stud finger loose in block and measure height above the fire deck.
step 2. measure thickness of washer and nut.
Step 3. measure thickness of head through counter bore.
Add head gasket thickness + measurement of step 2 + 3 and subtract measurement of step 1
If the result is a positive number you are long by that amount and make adjustments accordingly.

I failed to measure the studs to begin with I only measured the amount of threads past the nut and subtracted that from the overall length and came up with 5.85" which I ground the excess off the bottom of the stud and deburred and polished it on a scotch brite wheel. I would guess the studs were 6" to begin with.
I should receive the final part needed to finish this project tomorrow keeping my fingers crossed.

I would not be comfortable mixing in the VW studs in locations 11-14 because the cross section of the stud is smaller and elastic charismatics would be different and may cause unwanted stress on the head.

_________________
Bought 2005 Liberty 207,000 miles June 2018
in tank fuel pump, egr block off plate new glow plugs new manifold pressure sensor
new turbo modulator filter new turbo re-manufactured head with new exhaust valves
ARP studs new lifters and rockers new water pump re-manufactured injectors timing and serpentine belts
list still growing


Last edited by cts1950 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:31 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 7157
Location: Central GA
Does anyone have a spare VW stud and one of the longer studs in question?
If so, could you measure the overall lengths of the two different studs and post them?
I believe it would be very helpful for this discussion.

What is known:
Height of cavity in web of valve cover above studs on locations 11-14 (~ 0.570) (may vary slightly from engine to engine)
Thickness measurement of a used compressed valve cover gasket (0.022)
So 0.570 + 0.022 = 0.592 which is the total available space or height of a stud extending beyond the top of the head to valve cover mating surface.

Using cts1950's measurement of 0.585 which would be just under the 0.592 limit and should fit?
6 inches would certainly be TOO long! :roll:

:SOMBRERO:

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:14 pm 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:22 pm
Posts: 393
Location: north central Nebraska
WWDiesel wrote:
Does anyone have a spare VW stud and one of the longer studs in question?
If so, could you measure the overall lengths of the two different studs and post them?
I believe it would be very helpful for this discussion.

What is known:
Height of cavity in web of valve cover above studs on locations 11-14 (~ 0.570) (may vary slightly from engine to engine)
Thickness measurement of a used compressed valve cover gasket (0.022)
So 0.570 + 0.022 = 0.592 which is the total available space or height of a stud extending beyond the top of the head to valve cover mating surface.

Using cts1950's measurement of 0.585 which would be just under the 0.592 limit and should fit?
6 inches would certainly be TOO long! :roll:

:SOMBRERO:


My 'normal' studs, measure 5.750 inch. Each end has 1 inch of threads.

Now, the other 'special' studs are also 5.750 long, but the end that screws into the block has thread that measure 1.35 inches long.
I'd say a big YES on the 6 inchers being too long for that position in the head. These are Whitbred studs.

When I'm ready to thread my studs in, I'll have the nut and washer already spun down to 1- 1-1/2 threads showing.. When the stud either bottoms out lightly, or the washer is making firm contact..(whichever comes first).
Should be ready for the torqueing sequence. I fully expect the 'normal' positions to have the stud bottom out before the nut/washer gets snug.. where I think it's a toss up on which will come first; stud bottoming out, or the nut getting tight on those 4 positions. I'm hoping for the nut to get snug!!

from 'my' math, I'd say a big YES on the 6 inchers being too long for those 4 positions.

Has anyone paid attention to how much the nut approximately turns, to make spec on the torque? (after all have been lightly snugged)? 3/4 turn? Full turn??

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:40 am 
Offline
LOST Newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:48 am
Posts: 12
IT RUNS!
Got the last part from ID today and it started after about 45 seconds of intermittent attempts. Is there a fast way to bleed the injectors and rail ? Found a oil leek I forgot to tighten the oil pipe to the turbo at the block. That was a bugger to tighten from the bottom. A 7/8 harbor freight wrench was sacrificed into a crows foot. Drove it to Auto Zone and got a filter and 2 gallons of rotilla 5-40 synthetic by the way it is on sale 23.99 plus a 7 dollar mail in rebate for a gallon and a mobile 1 oil filter. No unusual noises can't wait to put some miles on it.
Thanks for all the help and expert advice.

_________________
Bought 2005 Liberty 207,000 miles June 2018
in tank fuel pump, egr block off plate new glow plugs new manifold pressure sensor
new turbo modulator filter new turbo re-manufactured head with new exhaust valves
ARP studs new lifters and rockers new water pump re-manufactured injectors timing and serpentine belts
list still growing


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:13 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 7157
Location: Central GA
cts1950 wrote:
IT RUNS!
Got the last part from ID today and it started after about 45 seconds of intermittent attempts. Is there a fast way to bleed the injectors and rail ?

Glad you got it running! :D
As to bleeding, most recommend cracking the no. 4 injector fitting while cranking the engine over until you see fuel spraying out and then tighten fitting. :wink:

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:00 pm 
Offline
LOST Junkie

Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:15 pm
Posts: 776
Location: Eastern US
Hard to believe it has been seven years since I did this. Glad to hear folks find studs of use!

_________________
Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:58 pm 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:57 pm
Posts: 2654
Location: Boise, Idaho
I installed the VW studs long ago, tested them to 4000 rpm's several times, heavy towing (5,000 lbs) up steep grades, and I torqued mine *5ft lbs less than recommended. I've also installed more than a dozen of these with no known failures.
So, I'm just surprised that the longer studs are still being used since they cause problems. However, I would use the longer studs in a "race" engine. :2cents:

*re-torqueing my studs soon as I'm pulling the top for other reasons

_________________
05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:57 am 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:12 pm
Posts: 2505
Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
Curious if they've loosened up when you check the torque.

I've been planning to check and retorque mine (one at a time) at next timing belt, but that's still a couple years away if all goes well.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:03 pm 
Offline
LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:57 pm
Posts: 2654
Location: Boise, Idaho
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Curious if they've loosened up when you check the torque.


Me too! I'll report back. Really curious about rocker wear also.

I think I'll torque them to the full "spec" this time around. I stayed a little in the safe worrying that it might put a valve stem in a bind, but any tight spots should have worn enough after 40k miles. And, there's a ton of them out there now that I'm more comfortable with the higher torque.
Not that I'm questioning the engineer that came up with the spec, just extra cautious. I went full spec on all of the other ones I assembled.

_________________
05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:59 pm 
Offline
LOST Junkie

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:17 pm
Posts: 571
Location: Republic, Oh
When i did mine all those years ago, i would let the engine sit overnight and "settle" then go back in the morning and check the torque again. You'd be surprised how many moved.

_________________
05 Liberty Limited CRD, converted to KPA 2863 ball bearing and billet turbo, 50hp injectorsl, complete egr delete, cooling fan delete, weeks intake kit, cummins in tank lift pump, ARP studs, 3" turbo back exhaust, samcos, etecno plugs, GDE trans tune, custom GDE engine tune.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:00 pm 
Offline
LOST Junkie

Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:15 pm
Posts: 776
Location: Eastern US
getting back into CRD Liberty, and it is cool to see folks still using studs in lieu of the so-called TTY bolts.

_________________
Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:06 am 
Offline
LOST Addict

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:42 am
Posts: 2110
Location: Fort Collins, CO
LMWatBullRun wrote:
getting back into CRD Liberty, and it is cool to see folks still using studs in lieu of the so-called TTY bolts.


Welcome back. I have an engine on the stand now that I need to get studded.

_________________
05CRD: GDE Hot ECU & TCM tunes, Provent, Cat filter, Facet lift pump, TransGo kit, Florida TC, Samcos, stainless brake lines, HDS thermostat, Renegade light bar,
RL super sliders, Bilstein adjustables, Al's Gen 4.5 Arms, 235/85-16 Duratracs, DTT rear, Elocker front, EVIC+TPMS, Turbo timer, McNally pillar gauges, Weeks Stage II kit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:29 pm 
Offline
LOST Addict

Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm
Posts: 1167
FOLLOWING...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:19 am 
Offline
LOST Member

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm
Posts: 271
LMWatBullRun wrote:
getting back into CRD Liberty, and it is cool to see folks still using studs in lieu of the so-called TTY bolts.


Welcome back. I was there when yours was studded. A few months after yours was done I did mine and have zero regrets. My libby is running like a top albeit with several mods.

I credit SEGR and subsequent removal of ALL EGR, flow valve, etc as a huge plus. Then lift pump going into a double filtration mod along with a bypass oil filter at 2 microns. etc.

I think I have a few ARP studs leftover somewhere.

_________________
2005 CRD Limited
SEGR
WEEKS Kit (removed EGR, FCV),
Gen 2 Fuel Head
GDE Eco Tune
ARP studs
Etechno (7v) Glow Plugs
F37
Kap 193 thermostat
Carter Lift Pump (Modified wiring harness)
Fumoto (CRD-108)
Bypass oil filter (2 micron)
Samco
Provent
Sears P-1 Battery
Secondary 2 micron fuel filter


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 377 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group. Color scheme by ColorizeIt!
Logo by pixeldecals.com