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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:03 am 
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JNL has been heard from. They stock sleeves, bearings, seals, etc.

Parts ARE available.

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2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:47 am 
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It would be nice if they sold the front half of the water pump...

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05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:09 am 
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well, I have watched Sam's video, read the book, the stars appear properly aligned, the weather gods have smiled, the shipping genies have blessed my orders and I think I have all components on hand, tools are on hand, and today is the day, with trepidation and recognition of the power of Murphy, I start my:
-timing belt change
-water pump change
-fan clutch change
-glow plug change (etechno 7v)
-ARP stud replacement.
-Rocker inspection/replacement

I am going to do one last inventory check and then it's wrench time. No posts till Monday. unless I can't find something. :? If I am missing something I'll be back on. I will, with luck, have a successful stud installation to report on Monday.

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:19 am 
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LM,

What are the Part numbers of the ARP studs you will be using?

Also, We would be in your debt if you provided digital pictures of the ARP Studs and the progression of the install.

And ultimately the results from the install.

This above all, would be a great thing for all of us to see.

Good Luck and thanks in advance.

Racer

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2006 Liberty Limited CRD, Deep Beryl Green, Yeti tune, Arp studs, new cams, rockers, lifters, TB. "Green Monster"
2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Deep Beryl Green, GDE Hot Tune, ARP studs. "Rocket"
1982 Fiat 124 Spider Convertible. "Fiona"


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Good luck!

I know where the etechno plugs are coming from, have you had a chance to do anything else with that hunk of trashed iron?

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:00 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Good luck!

I know where the etechno plugs are coming from, have you had a chance to do anything else with that hunk of trashed iron?


Actually, I have 2 sets of my own Etechno GPs I already had on hand, was planning to use the other on the rebuilt motor that will be going into your former buggy this spring. The others will be spares.

So far, so good taking lunch break and back at it now.

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Intellectually, I knew this engine was a tight fit in this engine compartment, but my goodness what a large number of nasty places to deal with to get at things. I am almost persuaded that it might be easier to pull the motor when doing anything more than just the timing belt. I debated doing the supply air elbow from below or taking the fuel filter out and doing it from on top, and decided to take the fuel filter out; five minutes or less and it gave me enough room, barely, to get that last pesky bolt out.

The valve cover and cam shafts are off now, and the rockers were carefully removed in preparation for the one at a time replacement of the head bolts.

My sample bolt refused to budge with a 6 pt 11mm 3/8 drive socket, and I don't have a 1/2 drive 11 mm impact socket (yet), so a trip for an 11mm 1/2" drive impact socket is on the agenda for tomorrow. Will take and post pics once I start replacing bolts with studs.

Of note, the air passages were heavily sooted up, as was the interior of the cover and the surface of the head. Also, the rocker bearings were worn, some notably more than others, but all of them were worn. I am glad that I spent the extra time and skin to take the cover off and look at them.
I saw nothing in the SM about service limits; anybody know what they are?

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


Last edited by LMWatBullRun on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:56 am 
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It would seem they are like VW automatic transmissions: A "lifetime" part.

The problem is, just like a human being... If you don't ever go see a doctor, your body will still serve you for a "lifetime" without ever being maintained. But should you get a checkup and service, they might find (and cure) something that makes your "lifetime" a LOT longer.

The "lifetime" of the component or the engine... Can easily be two different things. What you have to remember is this: The writers of that service manual only care about one thing - getting the vehicle to surpass the "lifetime" of the primary warranty period, usually about 100k miles even with an extended purchased warranty. After that point at 100,001 miles... They don't care. It is beyond their service life, but they will be more than happy to sell you another vehicle.

I seriously doubt we will EVER see a 1995+ model year vehicle being revered as much as a 1957 Bel Air or classic GTO can be. They just aren't built with any care to make them last.

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Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
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Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:27 pm 
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OK.

Was NOT able to buy OTS the 1/2" drive 11 MM 6 pt impact socket I wanted, (Looked at several places in NoVa) but Sears did have a 12 pt. Which I bought.
Here is the block waiting for me to have a go-

Imageblock, waiting

and here is a comparison of the new stud and old bolt. If you look closely you can see that the stud is just slightly longer than the bolt.

Imageheadbolt (top); ARP stud



As I expected, there is a high degree of variability in the torque of the existing TTY head bolts. So far, I have 6 out and replaced, with one that I tried but failed to remove with an 18" breaker bar, the 12 pt socket aforementioned and about 200 pounds of pull. That one will wait for the 6pt impact socket. Some I was just barely able to start, and others came out with almost no socket marks and with relative ease.
This one was very stubborn:
Imageold bolt

The sequence is fairly simple;
-Remove the old bolt;

Imageold bolt coming out


-clean the hole and inspect;
-Gently lower the clearing tap, carefully start it, and clear the hole all the way down. This should be a two fingered easy task. (One of the aluminum holes in the head was misbored slightly and I could not get the tap to start into the CI block, so I skipped this step on that hole.) Some folks do not bother with this step, but I think it helps get full engagement of the threads and provides more consistent clamping force over time, which is the whole point of the exercise.
Here is the tap:
Imageclearance tap

and here is what it looks like going in-
Imagetap started


-Once the tap bottoms, carefully remove it and once disengaged from the threads, carefully lift it out and clear the chips from the tap (I use an acid brush and PB blaster to clean it)

Here is (an out-of focus one hand) shot of the chips and shmutz that comes out
Imagechips on tap tip

-If you are really persnickety, you will vacuum out the hole. I did not, as there is a good 1/4" of hole below the bottom of the stud.

-I do not want these to be permanent, at least not yet, so I used black ultra RTV on the coarse 1.75 bottom threads, and ARP lube on the finer 1.25 upper threads, both sides of the washer and the washer face of the nut.

Here is one going in-
Imagestud going in

-If you bottom the stud out, you will have about 2 or 3 more threads engaged than stock, and you will be short about 2 threads up top, so I ran the stud in until I was about half a turn low up top, then torqued to 100 FP.

Imagefirst torque to 100 fp

Once I have all the studs in, then I will torque to 120 and then to 140 FP per the sequence in the FSM.

A couple of other noteworthy things;
-The aluminum head was deformed in some of the holes from the TTY bolt head, which measures around 0.830" and has a radiused outer corner on the lower surface of the bolt head. The holes are just under 0.900" and the ARP washers run between 0.870" and 0.875" in diameter. Some of the holes show more or less distortion; I will probably remove and check to see whether the ARP washers 'ironed out' these irregularities after I have torqued to 140 FP.

-As I mentioned, at least one of the holes in the head was drilled oddly, as the tap would not go all the way down without binding. Both the bolt and stud would go, but not the tap.

Hope you folks find this of use; if there is anything I missed or that is unclear, please let me know!

LMW

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:56 pm 
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Cool, any pics of your rocker play?

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:39 am 
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Just beautiful.

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2006 Liberty Limited CRD, Deep Beryl Green, Yeti tune, Arp studs, new cams, rockers, lifters, TB. "Green Monster"
2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Deep Beryl Green, GDE Hot Tune, ARP studs. "Rocket"
1982 Fiat 124 Spider Convertible. "Fiona"


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:57 am 
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gorgeous work.

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Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:21 am 
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I would like to know why there was so much of a torque difference between the OEM head bolts when you removed them.

Why do they loosen up so much? Are the OEM TTY bolts of poor quality from the start?

I have heard this happening before, members finding loose TTY bolts. Some come out like a knife in butter, while others retain their torque. It's a big differemce.

We keep hearing of head gasket failure but I am wondering if the TTY bolts gave out and just re-torquing them would suffice to reseal the head?

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2006 Liberty Limited CRD, Deep Beryl Green, Yeti tune, Arp studs, new cams, rockers, lifters, TB. "Green Monster"
2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Deep Beryl Green, GDE Hot Tune, ARP studs. "Rocket"
1982 Fiat 124 Spider Convertible. "Fiona"


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:53 am 
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racertracer wrote:
I would like to know why there was so much of a torque difference between the OEM head bolts when you removed them.

Why do they loosen up so much? Are the OEM TTY bolts of poor quality from the start?

I have heard this happening before, members finding loose TTY bolts. Some come out like a knife in butter, while others retain their torque. It's a big difference.

We keep hearing of head gasket failure but I am wondering if the TTY bolts gave out and just re-torquing them would suffice to reseal the head?


It is possible that re-installing the existing TTY head bolts might prevent HG leaks before they happen, but once the HG starts to go, it's time for a new one. I suppose if you are vigilant you might catch the HG before it is gone since these are steel, but once you know it's leaking it is probably too late. Plus, once you are into the engine far enough to do the bolts, you might as well go the rest of the way and do the HG if you know or strongly suspect you have a leak. It is a lot of work to get all the stuff out of the way to get at the bolts.

Keep in mind, too, that the specified procedure is 'turn of the bolt,' not torque, and this is probably a better procedure than torque for these bolts. I have no idea what a good torque value would be. (I have reused TTY bolts on other vehicles, even though you are not 'supposed' to do so, with good results.)

My guess on why we see this sort of variation, (and that is ALL that this is, a guess,) is that there are local variations from hole to hole on block thread smoothness, levelness/smoothness of the head seating surface, variation in the heat treat and yield strength of the TTY bolt, variation in the smoothness and concentricity of the TTY bolt threads, variation in the dimensions and strength of the head, etc., that all contribute to variation in residual clamping force.

If I were to re-install these TTY head bolts, I would match existing bolt to present hole, and run the bolt in and out 8 or 10 times with high pressure install lube like ARP lube, essentially lapping the bolt and block threads and getting the lube worked into the surface of the material. I would also use ARP lube between the bolt head and the machined recess on the head. This procedure reduces the variation in thread friction and improves consistency in clamping force, but it is tedious even with an air ratchet. I would then tighten the bolts as speced in the 06 FSM.

Once you have the other stuff out of the way, the ARP studs are easy, by comparison. I did 6 in about an hour last night, taking my time and not rushing, and taking notes and pictures. That is not counting getting all the tools, lights, tent, camera etc. ready to go. ( I also had to hunt for the cubbyhole I had stashed the ARP lube in... :lol: ) The studs give consistent clamping force with little effort. Cheap they are not, but I will be much more confident of long term serviceability with them installed.

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


Last edited by LMWatBullRun on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:55 am 
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Sir Sam wrote:
Cool, any pics of your rocker play?


Not yet. Not sure how you could present that. I have not measured any of the existing ones yet; will do a post mortem on those after I get Lady Liberty buttoned up again and running.

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:17 am 
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Thanks LMW for the explanation and your efforts to show us how it's done. I for one, really appreciate it.

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2006 Liberty Limited CRD, Deep Beryl Green, Yeti tune, Arp studs, new cams, rockers, lifters, TB. "Green Monster"
2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Deep Beryl Green, GDE Hot Tune, ARP studs. "Rocket"
1982 Fiat 124 Spider Convertible. "Fiona"


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:48 pm 
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racertracer wrote:
Thanks LMW for the explanation and your efforts to show us how it's done. I for one, really appreciate it.


I'm glad to be able to pay a little bit back to a great bunch of folks here on LOSTJEEPS. Most of whom I have never met, but many of whom have helped me, one way or another. I doubt that many will want to spend the bucks or time to do this, but for those who want to be sure that they have done everything they can to get the most out of their CRD, this is one little piece to consider.

I am convinced that this will alleviate the mysterious HG failures we have heard about.

More pictures soon- the 11mm impact socket in conjunction with the 3/4 drive breaker bar is MUCH stiffer than the 1/2 breaker bar w 12 pt. I have never broken a 1/2" but they do flex when you really pull on them. The 3/4 drive I have never really flexed without a cheater.

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:59 pm 
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well, it's done. More pictures and details to follow after I get some sleep, probably tomorrow night.

A couple of interesting points-

Getting from 100 FP to 120 was fairly predictable in terms of wrench turn angle. About 1/3 to 1/2 turn and the wrench clicked. From 120 to 140 was not nearly so consistent, so I elected to tighten to 130 and then to 140. Even with smaller steps, I got some surprisingly large variance in pull angles.

This is either the head being pulled into alignment with the block by the studs, or the ARP washers compressing that outside ridge left by the TTY bolt heads. I strongly suspect the latter, and suspect the variance in pull angle is the result of differing sized ridges (height and width). I will put a straightedge on the top of the head tomorrow and see if it is warped. The next one of these I do I will either have a new head or I will get/make a piloted mill the right width and remove the ridge prior to torquing the studs.

I will remove one of the nuts later this week and see whether that ridge has been squashed flat or what. I suspect that it has, since when the washer was snug tight it was about 0.010" above the surface of the head, and now that they are all torqued up they are about 0.020" or 0.030" below the surface of the head.
EDIT to add> I did check these and they were flattened out, but at the price of minor distortion of the head. Recommend that the studs be torqued to 125 pound-feet for the outside bolts and 130 for the inner. This will leave the ring uncrushed, so that will have to be removed prior to doing the work.

The other thing is that removing the last 12 bolts showed a continuation of the variability in TTY bolt torque. 2 were fairly easy, and 3 were very difficult. I'd guesstimate the torque on those hard ones at 300+ FP; at least 150 pounds pull on a 2 1/2' breaker/cheater combo.

An 11mm 6 pt impact socket is highly recommended.

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


Last edited by LMWatBullRun on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:36 pm 
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More pictures from Tuesday night.

Here is my Mongo breaker bar with extension and 1/2" adapter, next to the 1/2" Craftsman breaker bar with the 6pt 11 mm impact socket in between.
Sometimes bigger is better; this setup was really stiff and allowed a sudden surge to start the stubborn bolts where the 1/2" bar would just flex.

Image


Mongo ready to go to work. You can see some notes from Monday on the bumper.

Image


Here is the bolt that I could not extract on Monday. Note on the hex head where the 11mm 12 pt socket deformed and almost rounded off the bolt head. Mongo and my 18" titanium pipe cheater did it with ease.

Image


Here is the head hole for that bolt. You can clearly see the deformation of the head from the TTY bolt; look at the ring around the chamfered hole. EDIT> Strongly recommend that this be removed by a milling cutter prior to installation.

Image

The tap with a typical chip load from clearancing the CI block hole. Usually most of the chips come on one of the three flutes.

Image


Here is a better view of how I set the fine threaded nut relative to the stud before torquing-

Image

Tap in the second to the last hole. Because of the cramped location, I had to install the tap separately from the wrench, and it was difficult to get the wrench to turn. An 8 point socket in the right size and a 1/4" ratchet might be a good idea for these. As I did not have the 8pt, after doing this one I decided that the last hole could remain untapped.

Image

torque wrench set for the last pass around the block. EDIT> I do not recommend this level of torque. The ARP studs are capable of deforming the head. I recommend that you torque to 125 FP for the outside holes and 130 for the inside.

Image

Block, with all 18 nuts torqued. The torquing was a lot of work; I made 3 full transits around the top of the head, 120, 130 and 140 FP. EDIT> Note that I do NOT recommend going to 140 FP for either inner or outer holes; 130/125 is my recommendation.

Image

Fine thread nut after torquing to 140 FP. Note the washer being inset now below the face of the head, and note the projection of the threads above the stud. This is what you want to have, about one thread of the stud above the top of the nut. EDIT> Note also that once the ring of AL is crushed/removed, the torques are consistent with the wrench movement and there is little movement from 125 to 140 FP. Again, I suggest that you torque to 130 for the core bolts and 125 for the edges.

Image

Anyway, to quote Commander Cody, "That's all there is and there ain't no more!"

EDIT> If you are thinking of doing this please PM me for details.

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


Last edited by LMWatBullRun on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ARP head studs
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:40 am 
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The deformity you experienced on that one TTY bolt head... I experienced that when attempting destructive testing on one of the used TTY bolts.

I twisted that bolt to the point (with a 3' 1/2" torque bar and 6-point socket) up to about 250 lb-ft. At NO POINT did the bolt "yield" as I had experienced my TTY VW bolts, the torque was linear and consistent. After about 2 full rotations beyond the FSM-torquing-instructions (Which only got me to about 105-115 lb-ft with the variations you experienced)... At 250lb-ft, the bolt head flutes failed and it rounded off. It never stretched or yielded.

If you were putting down 300 lb-ft to remove them from the head (and I find this exceedingly possible).... Is it possible that the bolts actually clamp TIGHTER from the engine heating cycles after the initial torque? The factory process did not get me anywhere near the fight I had to exert when removing them.

If you can, would you mind trying some destructive testing on some of the old TTY bolts you have, to see if they actually DO ever yield?

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TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


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