ARP head studs

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:24 pm

Geordi,

LM hasn't responded in a while .... here is the contact info http://www.elring.de/en/01en/10_contact.php

You may want to initiate a converstion.

NotPicky was to get the part numbers from ARP, he never responded either.

You'll need to go from scratch on this again.

R

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:27 pm

We don't have the part number yet, you will need to get the part number form the company, you will need to start from square one regardin the head gasket.

gtiguy1010 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:02 pm **Posts:** 13

I found these on the link you provided:

Can we use any of these?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:56 pm

Looks like it - The "linked engines" for that first one shows the "ENR" code engine, as well as the VM 2.5 engine, so it looks like they used the same head gasket for both. The second and third on that page were the thicker options for the same gasket and then the others were the valve cover and exhaust gaskets - All things which I will need.

I'm going to see about ordering them tomorrow from the distributor in Georgia, hopefully I can.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:17 am

geordi wrote:

Part numbers, please!

What is the part number for the Elring gasket? I'll buy it direct from them if I have to, but I will be pulling the head entirely, so I need that.

Stud kit part numbers? I don't mind buying either a kit for another engine OR the individual studs / washers / nuts... But I need to know which ones will fit, and that they can take the 145ft-lbs that you determined would be the answer.

Thanks!

Been extra busy with family stuff, sorry i have not been active. I see you posted the Elring number. It is actually in the elring catalog.

The bolt numbers are up above. Kit numbers i would have to look up in the ARP catalog.
Will try to get to that this week if possible.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:39 pm

OK - talked to ARP today, this is a link to the kit at Summit:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-204-4706/

The ARP part number is 204-4706, but you need to buy two of these kits - ouch. That comes up to a LOT of cash. I'm about to call ARP and see exactly how much these would cost per piece, b/c my math says it would be about $100 cheaper to buy direct.

Annnd.... No it isn't. OUCH these things are expensive. $16 and change just for the stud, $4.50 for the nut, $1.03 for the washer. It is actually cheaper by about $25 to buy from Summit, but I have a decision to make now - if I can't order the gasket without the bolts, do I even care enough to spend ANOTHER $380 on this thing?

Hydraulic Jack · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:06 pm

I found them cheaper...$143 a set....HJ

http://www.kermatdi.com/servlet/the-489 ... for/Detail

GTS · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:43 pm

A couple things I thought I'd add with my previous experience with head studs/gaskets on the Powerstrokes. The SS gaskets really aren't that great unless you're having both head and block surfaces machined to a super smooth finish, otherwise they are likely to blow again.

Second a gasket that has been there for several thousand miles is bonded to both the block and head and will be less likely to blow than a new gasket under the same circumstances when pushing the engine harder and running much more boost/power. So you'd probably most likely be best off doing them one at a time and not doing the gasket unless the gasket has already failed or has shown signs of leakage such as pushing coolant out the degas bottle.

Third replacing factory bolts with head studs is NOT so you can significantly increase clamping force. the factory clamping force is usually sufficient. You can increase it some but the point of them is so they do not stretch under load. Head gaskets blowing is generally a product of the factory bolts stretching under load and lifting the head off the block, reducing the clamping force at the gasket and thus causing the failure.

Fourth retorquing is generally not needed on a standard type gasket. Especially with studs. It is however needed when going to o-ringed or fire ringed gaskets where you use a small wire (o-ring) around the edge of the cylinder that further crushes the gasket or when you remove the steel ring in the gasket around the cylinder all together and in it's place use a large steel wire that seals from the head to the block using a reciever groove in one or the other or both. In these applications the wire gets softer as it's heated and will compress more reducing the amount of clamping force. So in these applications you need to do a hot retorque. So you assemble the engine then run it up to operating temps and retorque the studs while the engine is still as hot as possible to get maximum compression on the fire rings.

I realize this is a little different engine than the Powerstroke but the principals at work are all basically the same.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:03 am

I am not installing the studs - I dropped $500 on parts and chasing this phantom problem today, ANOTHER $375 is just too much for me, when I am stuck getting the bolts whether I want them or not. I had the exact part number, they could not put it into their system at the dealer - kicked it back out to the kit. On the up side, I was within about $8 on the price to what MPA charges, and I don't have to deal with their shipping prices. I love shop rate. :mrgreen:

As far as this dang thing getting fixed... Check the other thread about the tapping... I might have a solution to the problem.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:15 am

Can you reinstall the existing TTY studs you pulled from the head?

They are a one time use studs, the OEM studs come with the head gasket.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:52 am

No need to reuse the old stretch bolts, I bought the dealer head gasket kit. After all your fun with heads and gaskets, you think I want to play with that?

I also got a new valve cover gasket, a new thermostat gasket (ripped the old one) and a new turbo oil gasket after that vanished during the disassembly.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:58 pm

Geordi, if youare gong to use tty bolts, then i suggest you use a deep tap to clean the threads and lap the bolts in to their respective holes. This helps get more consistent clamping force on the head.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:55 pm

while shopping for a replacement transmission to rebuild, I found a core engine which I plan to rebuild this fall/winter and swap into Lady Liberty. Came with the injectors and the turbo.

Has anybody done a full rebuild (sleeves/pistons/valves etc.) on this motor?

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:30 pm

I wanted to - could not find anyone willing to touch the block, and I still don't know if I would have the requisite skills to do it myself.

FYI: Doing the factory bolts according to the factory book process... I ended up with just about 100 lb-ft torque on those studs. That is according to the process of 22 ft-lb starting pressure, 75 degree turn on only the center bolts (equals 66 lb-ft), 50 degree turn on only the outer bolts (equals 55 lb-ft), and 75 degrees on all bolts to finish.

I'm surprised it is that low, but that is what the book has.

dieseldoesit · **Posted:** Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:24 am

geordi wrote:

I wanted to - could not find anyone willing to touch the block, and I still don't know if I would have the requisite skills to do it myself.

FYI: Doing the factory bolts according to the factory book process... I ended up with just about 100 lb-ft torque on those studs. That is according to the process of 22 ft-lb starting pressure, 75 degree turn on only the center bolts (equals 66 lb-ft), 50 degree turn on only the outer bolts (equals 55 lb-ft), and 75 degrees on all bolts to finish.

I'm surprised it is that low, but that is what the book has.

Doe the bolts have to be brand new?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:42 am

dieseldoesit wrote:

geordi wrote:

I wanted to - could not find anyone willing to touch the block, and I still don't know if I would have the requisite skills to do it myself.

FYI: Doing the factory bolts according to the factory book process... I ended up with just about 100 lb-ft torque on those studs. That is according to the process of 22 ft-lb starting pressure, 75 degree turn on only the center bolts (equals 66 lb-ft), 50 degree turn on only the outer bolts (equals 55 lb-ft), and 75 degrees on all bolts to finish.

I'm surprised it is that low, but that is what the book has.

Doe the bolts have to be brand new?

Yes. These are "torque-to-yield" or "stretch" bolts, and you aren't supposed to reuse them at all. You get a full set of new bolts when you buy the head gasket.

salopez · **Joined:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:52 pm **Posts:** 32

it is my understanding that there is no way to rebuild this engine at this point. this is due to nobody having the parts. i have searched nationwide though dealers and other vendors and cannot find main bearings right now. chrysler never ordered a rebuild kit from VM so you need to buy each part, which is about 2800 wholesale.

right now i am in the process of figuring out what to do with my dead libby...the motor is done but the rest is beutiful.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:24 pm

if you can get a rebuild kit for a 1930 Model A, then you ought to be able to get a kit for a 2005 engine. I will be looking into this some more, as I now have a plethora of top end parts to play with to go into the rebuild I am planning.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:32 am

LMWatBullRun wrote:

if you can get a rebuild kit for a 1930 Model A, then you ought to be able to get a kit for a 2005 engine. I will be looking into this some more, as I now have a plethora of top end parts to play with to go into the rebuild I am planning.

Sure you can get the parts. The question is, can you rebuild for less than the cost of a new motor? Sadly the answer is probably no. Try these guys http://jnlengineering.co.uk/

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:22 pm

dirtmover wrote:

LMWatBullRun wrote:

if you can get a rebuild kit for a 1930 Model A, then you ought to be able to get a kit for a 2005 engine. I will be looking into this some more, as I now have a plethora of top end parts to play with to go into the rebuild I am planning.

Sure you can get the parts. The question is, can you rebuild for less than the cost of a new motor? Sadly the answer is probably no. Try these guys http://jnlengineering.co.uk/

Thanks for the link, Dirtmover!

Hopefully I will know more soon, as I have requested a price list from JNL. Will advise.
If all else fails, a decent DIY machine shop can do a lot.
Shell bearing inserts are not difficult to fab, just time consuming. Cylinder inserts are easy too. Cast and machined AL pistons are more difficult, and forged rods are probably not doable for DIY. Cast AL rods are difficult but doable, but probably will not hold up under diesel service. (The CRD uses steel rods, if I am not mistaken.) What I think I will do is have a set of rods weight matched after they have been magnafluxed and heat treated to -300 F.

ARP head studs

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