ARP head studs

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:19 pm

The blue juice turns yellow in the presence of gasoline combustion gasses, or yellow/green in the presence of diesel exhaust gasses. Neither should be in the radiator bottle. Obviously, the bright green that those results show is that there is a massive leak into the coolant system. This indicates a failed head gasket or cracked head.

bugnout · **Posted:** Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:48 pm

Cool. wish I had known about that last spring. Just looked it up on line, Is that block tester from NAPA?

DocB · **Posted:** Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:34 am

Yes it is. Best $50 bucks I ever spent. Almost.

I was going to write something else here, but come Monday morning I will give the Dealership a chance to make this right.

My service writer has always treated me right, up until this disappearing coolant situation, so I at least owe him that.

Although I usually take car of most of my vehicle stuff myself, since it is still under warrante I thought for once I would let the dealership do what they are supposed to do.

The warrante ends Wednesday, which I paid good money for, so this must be resolved now. So far they have thrown a lower radiator hose at it, on my dime, and now they want to change the thermostat housing.

I don't believe in arbitrarily throwing parts at a problem until it is fixed. Especially if I'm paying. So the parts bull$hit stops here. One strike, and you're out.

My vehicles are treated like my patients. I correctly diagnose, and then cure the problem, not the symptoms.

Looking forward to Monday!

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:16 am

Doc, Do you have a Chrysler Extended Warranty or another type of warranty?

flman · **Posted:** Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:09 am

DocB wrote:

Yes it is. Best $50 bucks I ever spent. Almost.

I was going to write something else here, but come Monday morning I will give the Dealership a chance to make this right.

My service writer has always treated me right, up until this disappearing coolant situation, so I at least owe him that.

Although I usually take car of most of my vehicle stuff myself, since it is still under warrante I thought for once I would let the dealership do what they are supposed to do.

The warrante ends Wednesday, which I paid good money for, so this must be resolved now. So far they have thrown a lower radiator hose at it, on my dime, and now they want to change the thermostat housing.

I don't believe in arbitrarily throwing parts at a problem until it is fixed. Especially if I'm paying. So the parts bull$hit stops here. One strike, and you're out.

My vehicles are treated like my patients. I correctly diagnose, and then cure the problem, not the symptoms.

Looking forward to Monday!

I would think they would be obligated to make any repairs required to satisfy the complaint you submitted before the expiration of your warranty? If they were waiting for parts on Tuesday and could not get them till Thursday, they would not push your Jeep out the door on Wednesday?

DocB · **Posted:** Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:38 am

Not unless they wanted me to drive it back in through the showroom window.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:17 am

DocB, the Stealerships know how to play the game, they have experience and they do not want to lose money or perform warranty repairs.

DocB · **Posted:** Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:50 am

An update on the present situation. Let the record show:
I have Added Care Plus which ends today, 2/12/12, at midnight. It extends the coverage by 24 months and unlimited mileage. It cost me $2123.95.
The vehicle has 109, 664 miles.
The following pertains to, and all work performed at Teterboro Chrysler/Jeep dealership, in Teterboro, NJ.

On 11/8/13, 107,202, had excessive pressure in coolant overflow tank and a visible coolant leak on the ground under the vehicle. LOCOOL CEL. Coolant low in reservoir tank.
I asked dealership to check for head gasket leak.
Dealership replaced the lower radiator hose.

On 12/6/13, 107,334, LOCOOL CEL. Coolant low in reservoir tank.
I asked dealership to check for head gasket leak.
Dealership stated possible air pocket when coolant hose was replaced and toped off coolant in reservoir tank.

On 2/4/14, 109,664, LOCOOL CEL. Coolant low in reservoir tank. I had been continually topping off coolant to replace continued loss, due to possible air pockets. No coolant on ground.
Temp guage reads low, Heat on floor not hot. Very excessive pressure in reservoir tank, even on a stone cold engine at 20*F after 12 hour cool down.
I asked dealership to check for head gasket leak.
Dealership found leaking from thermostat housing, which had been replaced at 84,862, and advised replacing with new thermostat housing. Also stated no leaks found from head gasket at this time.

On 2/6/14 I tested engine coolant at reservoir tank for combustion gas in coolant with the Block Tester Kit. Engine was fully warmed up. Blue test liquid turned yellow/green as posted above.
Very Positive for combustion gas in coolant.

On 2/7/14 I called my service advisor at the dealership and advised him of the positive test results. Made an appointment for Monday, 2/10/14, to actually/physically bring in the test chamber with the results that show positive for combustion gas in coolant.

On 2/10/14, Monday, showed the test chamber with results to service advisor. He said he spoke with the diesel mechanic about this test and 1.) A one chamber bulb is not a valid test and 2.) Chrysler does not recognize this test as having any validity. Diesel mechanic said he would use his 2 chamber bulb to test tomorrow.

On 2/11/14 I left the vehicle for the mechanic to perform the Block Tester chemical test with his two chamber bulb. At the end of the day I picked up the vehicle and was told the chemical test was negative. I told the service advisor that something was wrong with their testing methods. The vehicle exhibits all the physical and chemical signs of a head gasket leak at the least, or worse a cracked cylinder head or block. I told him that I would be back tomorrow morning and perform the chemical Block Test right in front of him.

On 2/12/14 I performed the chemical Block test for the service advisor, right before his very eyes, in the parking lot of the dealership. It was a very cold morning today, the engine was not even up to full operating temp, and the blue test liquid turned light green. See picture below that was immediately taken in the parking lot of the dealership.

The service advisor disagreed with me and said that the liquid is NOT green, and the test does not prove that there is combustion gas in the coolant.

I asked for him to ask the diesel mechanic to come outside to see the test.

My service advisor informed me that the service manager had told him not to bother the mechanic and waste his time, that I do not have a head gasket leak, and that they are not going to change the head gasket at this time.

I asked my service advisor if it wouldn't be in everyone's interest to change the head gasket now, while it is a small leak, than to wait until it becomes a big problem in the near future, and I am out of warranty.

He stated that I do not have a head gasket leak, but, since this was brought up while still under warranty, and that it has been recorded with Chrysler Customer Relations, that it will be taken care of under warranty in the future if there is a problem.

I then asked him if I was supposed to drive around like this, wait until I window the block, and blow the engine.

He said yes, if you come back with a blown engine, then the engine will be replaced under warranty. But we will not change the head gasket at this time.

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:00 am

F**k that....

I wont say it again but ....did I not tell you to get Customer care involved before you even talk to the dealer?

They will not fix it or acknowledge that there is a problem until they hear from CusCare.... period?

Tell CusCare that you have proof.

You needed to get customer care involved when you had the warranty in place about a week ago.

And if you think that they will replace the engine under warranty if it blows up while you continue driving it, well then I have a bridge to sell you.

I don't know how many more times I have to say it, but you got to get Chrysler Customer Service in Detroit involved right away while you have the warranty. If you haven't already done so, it may be too late. The dealer could give a doodoo about your warranty.

The dealer doesn't want to fix it under warranty, it's evident in the response you received from the service manager.

Chrysler will not pay the dealer as much as he could get directly from a unsuspecting high paying customer.

I have been told that the Chrysler warranty will pay the dealer a very low set fee, which is approximately 3/8 less of what they would charge you. So it is not in the dealers best interest to repair your vehicle under warranty, they will say that they couldn't find the problem all day long until your warranty runs out.

Good luck.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:22 am

My experience with Customer Disservice was the exact opposite. Even a dealer service writer that was on my side was unable to get corporate to assist in the slightest.

If it involves corporate spending any money, you can bet they will continue to weasel just as much.

My suggestion would have been getting the warranty provider involved, or a lawyer. Your situation now... I wouldn't lose ANY of the paperwork that you have from them, and if you had a recording of the service writer (or better, the manager) saying that they would replace it under warranty if it blows later, that would be even better. You can bet that the dealership will be promptly losing ANY records they have of this.

DocB · **Posted:** Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:32 am

Yes, yes, yes. I did get Customer Care involved. As per your recommendations. Thank you very much.
I hear you loud and clear.

They have been appraised of the situation multiple times. They seem concerned. They are now kicking it up to a tech team.

They are going to get back to me in 1-2 days and let me know if the head gaskets are going to get changed of if I should drive around until the engine blows and then they will replace it under warranty.

Me, I would inspect the head and block, install a new head gasket, Clean up the threads and washer seats, install a set of ARP studs, torque it down appropriately, and call it a day.

But hey, what do I know. We'll see.

BTW- I am still going to get they tstat housing replaced because they advised that. Unfortunately, I am going to have to let them do that to play the game. We'll see if I still loose coolant after that.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:38 am

What you know, is far more than the dealership. They don't like that, I can guarantee they don't like that one bit.

Arguing about the combustion test is proof enough - The tests are conclusive, there isn't any difference between a "single" or "double" chamber tester. No matter what, COMBUSTION GAS SHOULD NEVER BE IN THE ANTIFREEZE.

This is not conjecture or subject to debate. The antifreeze should remain PURE and sealed off from the exhaust. The dealership is trying to make you go away, and resisting doing the warranty work with everything they have. There are two possible reasons I can come up with for this:

1: They don't know how to do the job, their "diesel tech" is actually some kid that maybe once misfueled his Neon with diesel and thinks that is experience.

2: They know they will only get paid for book rate on the labor and parts... And doing it out-of-warranty will give them MUCH deeper (bottomless) access to money: Yours.

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:46 am

geordi wrote:

My experience with Customer Disservice was the exact opposite. Even a dealer service writer that was on my side was unable to get corporate to assist in the slightest.

If it involves corporate spending any money, you can bet they will continue to weasel just as much.

My suggestion would have been getting the warranty provider involved, or a lawyer. Your situation now... I wouldn't lose ANY of the paperwork that you have from them, and if you had a recording of the service writer (or better, the manager) saying that they would replace it under warranty if it blows later, that would be even better. You can bet that the dealership will be promptly losing ANY records they have of this.

Jim, the Chrysler Customer Care that I speak of, is the Chrysler Added Care Plus warranty provider.

Getting a lawyer involved now, will cost you more than the job is worth and also if you do decide to go the legal route then consider parking the vehicle on stilts while it sits there for months if not years waiting for a possible favorable resolution from the courts. With no guarantee that will happen and also $20,000 in legal fees is not an unheard of figure to pay when it comes to dealing with a legal case like this.

I know because a friend of mine lived a similar situation with a dealer and an automobile warranty issue and his legal battle went on for 16 months. he did win but it took a lot of time in court and legal fees.

dthdcrd · **Posted:** Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:35 pm

Does anyone know if you install a new head gasket and ARP studs, the studs have to be retorqued? I didn't search through here yet and have not called ARP. Was hoping someone may know from experience.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:52 pm

From a purely following-the-letter-of-the-instructions standpoint... The directions do say that you are supposed to re-torque new head studs. Thankfully, this is to be done during the installation, because getting back to them is a pain in the arse.

Now, this is the process I have followed, and why I don't really worry about re-torquing of new studs on the CRD. The general use of ARP studs are on extremely high power motors, where lifting the head due to cylinder pressure becomes a real possibility. The CRD isn't in this class at all.

I install the studs with ARP lube on the narrow threads, top and bottom of the washer, and the facing shoulders of the nut. Nothing on the wide threads that go into the block. Thread the nut onto the stud until it is flush with the top of the stud, washer in place. Thread the assembly down into the block until it contacts the head, washer in the recess.

This is where the process changes: Is this a one-by-one installation without removing the head, or has the head been removed / replacing the head gasket? (I am putting both processes here, since others may find this during a search)

For a one-by-one, go in any order that makes you happy, ONLY breaking loose the one bolt you are playing with, and putting the stud in before moving to the next. Install as described above. Torque the studs in the inner rows (directly bordering the cylinders) to 130 lb-ft AND NO MORE. This can be done in one step, but ONLY when the existing gasket has not been moved. The outer rows should be torqued to 120 or 125 lb-ft and NOT MORE. The threads of the stud should protrude from the top of the nut by approximately 1-1.5 threads when they are torqued. This is correct. Move on to the next bolt and repeat.

For a fresh head gasket, FOLLOW THE FACTORY MAP for tightening each stud. This will be a multi-step process, and it may be necessary to completely remove several of the studs and re-start them with the nut flush with the top of the stud so that the maximum thread grip in the block is achieved. The factory map alternates sides of the center rows to start with, then moves to the outside rows. Follow this, tightening each nut to 70 lb-ft. Once everything is at 70, go back and follow the pattern a second time. Remove them entirely one by one, re-set the nut to flush with the top of the stud, tighten the stud until it contacts the head, and torque the nut to 100 lb-ft. Finally, follow the pattern a third time and finish them off by just adding torque to 130 for the center rows and 120 or 125 for the outer rows.

That should be more than sufficient to compress the new gasket and keep the various fluids where they should be.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:41 pm

I differ with Geordi only in that when doing the one by one, I replace each individual bolt with a stud, washer and nut then torque to 100 fp. After that I suggest you torque to 115 in factory order, then again to 130 for the interior studs and 120/125 for the perimeter ones.

See page 5 of this thread for the details.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:34 pm

The only reason I suggest a one-and-done torquing for the one-by-one process is that I don't want ANY chance for the head gasket to shift. Loosening all the bolts to 70 lb-ft and then building them up to 115 and then 130 or 120/125... To me, that has just introduced some potential for flex across the entire head and gasket, where doing each stud to full torque while all others remain at full torque, eliminates 99% of the chances for gasket shifting or expanding.

Chances are, we are all talking about that last .00001 % difference in performance. YMMV. :5SHOTS:

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:33 pm

Are we splitting hairs?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:43 pm

racertracer wrote:

Are we splitting hairs?

Probably.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:10 pm

racertracer wrote:

Are we splitting hairs?

I think that at most a hundred angels can dance on the head of that ARP stud, not 130. :-)r

So there

<grin>

ARP head studs

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