ARP head studs

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:12 pm

DocB wrote:

Yes, yes, yes. I did get Customer Care involved. As per your recommendations. Thank you very much.
I hear you loud and clear.They have been appraised of the situation multiple times. They seem concerned. They are now kicking it up to a tech team. They are going to get back to me in 1-2 days and let me know if the head gaskets are going to get changed of if I should drive around until the engine blows and then they will replace it under warranty. Me, I would inspect the head and block, install a new head gasket, Clean up the threads and washer seats, install a set of ARP studs, torque it down appropriately, and call it a day.

But hey, what do I know. We'll see.

BTW- I am still going to get they tstat housing replaced because they advised that. Unfortunately, I am going to have to let them do that to play the game. We'll see if I still loose coolant after that.

Any news, DocB?

DocB · **Posted:** Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:52 am

Not yet. They are not open on Saturdays or Holidays, so I will call again tomorrow to make an appointment to have the tstat housing changed. As I said, I have to play their game for now.
If in fact it is leaking, I bet it is the gasket, or "how" he put it on 20K miles ago. I just don't see how the housing could have warped, as was suggested to me.
He says possibly warped housing, I said gasket or installation error. OR excessive coolant system pressure. We'll see.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sat May 17, 2014 5:44 pm

DocB wrote:

Not yet. They are not open on Saturdays or Holidays, so I will call again tomorrow to make an appointment to have the tstat housing changed. As I said, I have to play their game for now.
If in fact it is leaking, I bet it is the gasket, or "how" he put it on 20K miles ago. I just don't see how the housing could have warped, as was suggested to me.
He says possibly warped housing, I said gasket or installation error. OR excessive coolant system pressure. We'll see.

So what was the end result?

kewaal · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2014 1:04 am

LMWatBullRun wrote:

DocB wrote:

"bubbles and all kinda air pushing out"?

Hell, the cap almost took my hand off 3 days ago. On a stone cold (20*F) morning before start up. I am presently working with my dealership on this as I have had disappearing coolant. I am still under extended warranty and would like this fixed before it ends, which is soon. Twice I have asked to check the head gasket, but both times was told it was something else. I kind of don't like where this is headed, and would like to curtail an unpleasant future situation.
Any suggestions?

Doc, you either have a bad HG with or without warped head, or a cracked head, and I'd bet on the HG, as a cracked head usually bleeds off pressure. Geordi and RacerTracer have given excellent advice regarding dealing with the stealers. Keep in mind that you will end up with the same design that failed once already....... I would suggest replacing the bolts with studs once the stealer does whatever they do.

I've been fighting the slow disappearance of coolant and a pressurized system for a while now. My question is, what do you suppose might cause the coolant to turn black with what looks like small black particles? Carbon from the cylinders? The black stuff is not oil as it seems to settle.

I'm trying to assess how bad the damage might be before it gets real ugly. I'm sure a HG is needed but is there an obvious indication of a crack vs. a HG leak? The engine oil looks and smells pretty normal, too.

dgeist · **Posted:** Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:59 am

kewaal wrote:

I've been fighting the slow disappearance of coolant and a pressurized system for a while now. My question is, what do you suppose might cause the coolant to turn black with what looks like small black particles? Carbon from the cylinders? The black stuff is not oil as it seems to settle.

I'm trying to assess how bad the damage might be before it gets real ugly. I'm sure a HG is needed but is there an obvious indication of a crack vs. a HG leak? The engine oil looks and smells pretty normal, too.

EGR Cooler assembly leaking comes to mind. That's pretty much a cesspool of little black particles... You may have multiple causes to your set of conditions.

Dan

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:43 am

Curious how many people have installed studs to date?

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:30 pm

I've done them on 6 different motors to date, and I have suggested them to quite a few more... If about half did them, then there should be somewhere around 20 that I'd be confident in saying.

There are a goodly number of people that only lurk on the board and don't post however... Entirely possible that some of them or the rest of the general membership have put the studs in and not told anybody or we missed the notice.

I will say this: I haven't heard of ANYONE having gasket problems after putting in the studs. Ya done good on the engineering Larry. Cheers for all your hard work figuring this out. I'm more of a hands-on engineer type, I don't have the math to plan stuff out on paper so much as just eyeballing and doing my own testing. :5SHOTS:

flman · **Posted:** Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:27 pm

My 06 LTD just rolled 60K on the clock today, I am planning on a 2016 timing belt change, and putting in ARPs at the same time.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:12 pm

I've had them installed for 5,000 miles now, running 30+ psi of boost and 100hp more than stock with no issues. Highly highly recommend this mod.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:46 pm

flman wrote:

My 06 LTD just rolled 60K on the clock today, I am planning on a 2016 timing belt change, and putting in ARPs at the same time.

Uhm... 60k on the vehicle / ORIGINAL 8-year-old belt, or 60k on a considerably younger belt from a new engine?

You are gambling with a LOT of cash if you have the original belt from 8 years ago in there. The ones I have seen... Don't look so hot.

Napheus · **Joined:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:39 pm **Posts:** 57

I probably qualify as the lurker candidate type. My '06 Sport is laid up as we speak for the timing belt replacement. I'm at just under 110,000. I was going to just re torque the original bolts but after more reading here, the studs just make more sense. I kept flipping back and forth but finally bit the bullet and I'm doing the studs. I am debating whether to replace the head gasket or not. Here is why.

Because I don't visit the board everyday (I tend to go for long stretches at a time and then see what other issues crop up en masse-glutton for punishment, what can I say?) I took great interest in the learning the head bolts/heads are yet another area of concern. I have had the LO COOL warning twice within the last 2 years. Both in the winter, once during 2012 when my wife mentioned it to me (it was her daily driver then) and once in the middle of this past winter since I have been driving it. I live in Wisconsin and as anyone can attest to from Wisconsin this was an extremely colder than normal winter. I've added maybe a grand total of 2 quarts of antifreeze, and it is probably less than that. I do mostly interstate driving back and forth to work, about 52 miles a day round trip, and haven't had any issues other than the 2 times previously stated.

I'm thinking I'm a good candidate for stud only replacement. My thought is this. The head bolts are known problematic. I have not seen any major increased usage of antifreeze, like a quart a month or increasing the frequency in which I have to add coolant. I would lay money on not having a cracked head. If the combination of crappy head bolts with uneven torque, and winter temperatures allowed the perfect storm of enough warping/twisting (different expansion/contraction rates of cast iron block/aluminum head) to use some amount of coolant over an extended period, that doing the studs would potentially bring everything back in line. Much like the success the OP had with his. Thoughts?

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:01 pm

Good thinking on your part. You need to find where the coolant is disappearing from. If it is not external, a slight head gasket leak is possible. I would proceed with ARPs, but check the breakaway torque, as we did and see what you get. If there is a big differential, go with a HG, then. If not, ARPs alone should be good.

DOC

flman · **Posted:** Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:08 pm

geordi wrote:

flman wrote:

My 06 LTD just rolled 60K on the clock today, I am planning on a 2016 timing belt change, and putting in ARPs at the same time.

Uhm... 60k on the vehicle / ORIGINAL 8-year-old belt, or 60k on a considerably younger belt from a new engine?

You are gambling with a LOT of cash if you have the original belt from 8 years ago in there. The ones I have seen... Don't look so hot.

Good advice from you and Kjet, I will take it.

greiswig · **Posted:** Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:03 pm

I read through this thread with interest. In another thread, I posted some symptoms that I am having that might indicate coolant leaking into one or more cylinders when the engine isn't running, but oddly that the reservoir never seems to be pressurized.

It sounds like the stock head bolts either loosen over time or might not have been installed properly in the first place. I know studs would be better anyway, but is there any point in re-torquing the existing bolts at 140k if my head gasket seems okay?

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:38 pm

None. Another member attempted this instead of replacing with studs, because at that time I and others believed that it was possible... He reported at least 2 bolts broke off in the holes.

I cannot explain this, as my own experiment had showed that a bolt could withstand over 250lb-ft without yielding or shaft failure. Perhaps the metallurgy had changed, I do not know. But in light of his experience, and knowing that the HEAD will yield at 140lb-ft of torque, the ultra-engineered predictable performance of the ARP studs are the only thing I can recommend from now on.

Factory bolts are not predictable and should not be trusted.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

greiswig · **Posted:** Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:50 pm

geordi wrote:

None. Another member attempted this instead of replacing with studs, because at that time I and others believed that it was possible... He reported at least 2 bolts broke off in the holes.

I cannot explain this, as my own experiment had showed that a bolt could withstand over 250lb-ft without yielding or shaft failure. Perhaps the metallurgy had changed, I do not know. But in light of his experience, and knowing that the HEAD will yield at 140lb-ft of torque, the ultra-engineered predictable performance of the ARP studs are the only thing I can recommend from now on.

Factory bolts are not predictable and should not be trusted.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Thanks, Geordi

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:52 pm

greiswig wrote:

I read through this thread with interest. In another thread, I posted some symptoms that I am having that might indicate coolant leaking into one or more cylinders when the engine isn't running, but oddly that the reservoir never seems to be pressurized.

It sounds like the stock head bolts either loosen over time or might not have been installed properly in the first place. I know studs would be better anyway, but is there any point in re-torquing the existing bolts at 140k if my head gasket seems okay?

YMMV, but the torque of these bolts is subject to considerable variation. I would not re-use the bolts absent a COMPLETE lack of available funds. Your call.

greiswig · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:07 pm

Okay, dumb question time:

The ARP studs have two different types of threads. Coarse to mate with the block, and fine up above where the nut threads on.

I would guess that the torque spec is thinking that the nut is spinning against the stud, correct? But if you can't bottom out the stud, it would be free to move as well. And since the thread pitch is different, torque applied in that case would mean a different clamping force, wouldn't it?

Put another way, if I have one fine thread bolt and one coarse and apply the same torque to each, which one has greater clamping force? The fine thread one, right?

What, me worry?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:42 pm

You are overthinking this a little. Try this thought experiment: The threads are like gears. If you have a large gear and a small gear engaged with each other, a tiny move by the large gear makes the small one spin a lot. Put them on the same shaft, and the amount of movement is the same... EXCEPT when considered from the perspective of whatever they are touching.

You don't need to thread the stud to the bottom of the block. The assembled (and lubed) nut and washer on the narrow threads should be flush with the top of the stud, and threaded down until it contacts the top of the head. Applying force to the nut now, causes the large threads to also attempt to tighten / thread deeper into the engine, but this cannot happen because there is not sufficient rotational force on the stud from the nut.

With narrow threads, a small application of rotation adds a small amount of clamping, at a small amount of torque.
With wide threads, a small application of rotation adds a LARGE amount of clamping and a large amount of torque.

You are adding torque and clamping in smaller amounts - It may take 3-4 full rotations to get to the final torque on the fine threads. On the wide threads, it may have only taken 1-2 because the torque would ramp up so much faster. Your work on the nut will not cause the stud to rotate deeper, it cannot overcome the much steeper torque rise to move.

greiswig · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:00 pm

Thanks, geordi. Like I said, "what, me worry?"

I figured it was something like what you said, or else that the nut would turn on the fine threads before the coarse threads turned anyway, because of the lower pitch.

ARP head studs

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