LOST JEEPS :: View topic - ARP head studs

I will see what VM says about that.... I hope they can give us some advice.

The ARP tech said that replacing the head bolts one by one has been done in the past with success but there is no guarantee that the head gasket will not leak.

He said that in his thirty years at ARP and hearing stories from people who have done it that way in the past, more often than not the cylinder head gasket leaked, he said that if you're into the engine that far it would be silly not to go all the way.

Furthermore, he said that if the bolts are not custom made and are picked from readymade off the shelf stock, the cost would be approximately $375.00, if instead the bolts are custom made then the cost would be considerably more, approx. $1000.00 with an 8 to 12 week lead time.

Nice; now all we need is a "volunteer" to actual do the swap.

and to hear from VM if it can be done one bolt/stud at a time.

I can't imagine for one minute that VM will give their blessing for this. They have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to loose by offering up such advice.

Who loses on the sale, VM or Jeep/Fiat?

The ARP tech suggested a new head gasket along with the new ARP bolts, due to the new torque specs. Chrysler sells the gasket as a set with the torque to yield bolts and not separately.

Does anyone know of a reputable head gasket manufacturer?

Should I have *need* to pull the cams and top end off, then I will be happy to do this.

Do not Purchase the specified bolts listed above.

I found out that the tork spec required is way to low...... the present oem spec is above 200lbs.

More research is needed and I will update.

VM will not sell the head gasket separate from the bolts nor disclose the name of the manufacturer.

Author:	LMWatBullRun [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
racertracer wrote: I will see what VM says about that.... I hope they can give us some advice. The ARP tech said that replacing the head bolts one by one has been done in the past with success but there is no guarantee that the head gasket will not leak. He said that in his thirty years at ARP and hearing stories from people who have done it that way in the past, more often than not the cylinder head gasket leaked, he said that if you're into the engine that far it would be silly not to go all the way. Furthermore, he said that if the bolts are not custom made and are picked from readymade off the shelf stock, the cost would be approximately $375.00, if instead the bolts are custom made then the cost would be considerably more, approx. $1000.00 with an 8 to 12 week lead time. That is comparable to what I recall the costs for the D24T were; I think that set, which was 14 studs, not 18, ran around $200, but that was a while ago.

Author:	racertracer [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
OK, I was able to get the info from VM Motori and I forwarded it to ARP and the following is the response I received. "The part number of the closest stud that we have on hand is AU5.400-2LUB. The nut is AUN12-1 and the washer is AUW875N. Acceptable torque with ARP Ultra Torque would be about 100 ft-lbs. Approximate cost is $15.00 for a set of the stud, nut and washer. Best Regards, Justin Phillips Specialty Products Coordinator ARP Inc. 1760 E. Lemonwood Dr. Santa Paula, Ca 93060 (805)525-1497 (805)525-1441 Fax justinp@arpfasteners.com"

Author:	ACRucrazy [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
So looking like $150 for a set of 10 studs/washers/nuts? If so that is totally reasonable.

Author:	CATCRD [ Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
There are 18 head bolts.

Author:	ACRucrazy [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
Well then.. lol Guess ill have to add a few more hours of OT.

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Author:	LMWatBullRun [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
Group buy?

Author:	racertracer [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
The ARP tech suggested a new head gasket along with the new ARP bolts, due to the new torque specs. Chrysler sells the gasket as a set with the torque to yield bolts and not separately. Does anyone know of a reputable head gasket manufacturer?

Author:	papaindigo [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
Nice; now all we need is a "volunteer" to actual do the swap and to hear from VM if it can be done one bolt/stud at a time.

Author:	racertracer [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
papaindigo wrote: Nice; now all we need is a "volunteer" to actual do the swap. Geordi? papaindigo wrote: and to hear from VM if it can be done one bolt/stud at a time. VM did not have a suggestion.

Author:	dirtmover [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
I can't imagine for one minute that VM will give their blessing for this. They have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to loose by offering up such advice.

Author:	Squeeto [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
dirtmover wrote: I can't imagine for one minute that VM will give their blessing for this. They have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to loose by offering up such advice. I thought it was weird for VM to be offering up the original bolt information too. Good for them to help though. Who loses on the sale, VM or Jeep/Fiat?

Author:	racertracer [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
Squeeto wrote: Who loses on the sale, VM or Jeep/Fiat? I don't see it as a loss at all. You think that by Chrysler/Fiat losing some change on resale parts (ie. OE head gasket & bolts) that they will be hurt by it? I would bet that they appreciate all the R&D we've done on their discontinued engine. They'd give us a high five with a handshake for bringing the engine back to life and a diploma from the school of hard knocks.

Author:	LMWatBullRun [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
This is a win/win for VM Motori. If the use of ARP studs solves the HG failure problems, they have an improved motor that is more reliable and better able to last in the real world. If not, they can simply point out that this was not an approved installation. No skin off their backside. As I stated earlier, VM Motori has to know that they are treading on the edge of what can be done with AL heads and TTY head bolts. I am buying a set, and will either install them in the 'built' motor I have in mind, or in the existing one, one by one,when I do the TB change. Does anyone else have any interest in getting in on a possible group buy?

Author:	geordi [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
Very funny Racer. Haven't I been a laboratory specimen for enough of the CRD's misdesigns? I'm eagerly following this discussion... But at the same time, I'm not pulling my cams just for the fun of it. Should I have need to pull the cams and top end off, then I will be happy to do this.

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Author:	racertracer [ Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
geordi wrote: Should I have need to pull the cams and top end off, then I will be happy to do this. Same here.

Author:	LMWatBullRun [ Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
my thought is that once I have disassembled the CRD as much as required to do the TB and water pump, there is only a little more to do (Removal of the intake manifold) to access the headbolts. There is a lot more to do to access the block and head (removal of exhaust manifold, etc. My initial thought is that a one by one replacement would be practical at that point. Racer, who was your POC for the bolt information? I will call/email them to ask about the gaskets if you give me the name. LMW

Author:	LMWatBullRun [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
Studs, nuts, and washers OTW. Probably will do this one by one when I do the TB, just like the TDI or the D24. fun!

Author:	racertracer [ Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
Do not Purchase the specified bolts listed above. I found out that the tork spec required is way to low...... the present oem spec is above 200lbs. More research is needed and I will update. VM will not sell the head gasket separate from the bolts nor diclose the name of the manufacturer.

Author:	LMWatBullRun [ Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: ARP head studs
racertracer wrote: Do not Purchase the specified bolts listed above. I found out that the tork spec required is way to low...... the present oem spec is above 200lbs. More research is needed and I will update. VM will not sell the head gasket separate from the bolts nor disclose the name of the manufacturer. Keep in mind that the OEM bolts are 1.75 pitch while the nut ends on the studs and the nuts are 1.25 pitch, and much smoother to boot. Both these factors lower stud torque requirement to obtain required clamping force. Also keep in mind that the torque spec for the bolts includes allowance for block thread friction, while the torque spec for the studs is for nut torque ONLY, across a much smaller thread length. I will sit down tonight or this weekend and look at clamping force calculations. As regards finding a gasket manufacturer, if we know who did their gaskets for their past motors, I'd bet that would be a clew. Also, the maker's name is often on the packaging or the gasket itself.