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 Post subject: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:23 pm 
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I can't for the life of me figure out is why that huge VM1085 tool is necessary, its $225 dollars! There are locks for the 2 camshafts and the flywheel/crank gear, so everything is locked the way it should be (other than the injection pump).

As I understand it, the large lock is ONLY used to hold the camshaft sprocket can be loosened. Can't this just be accomplished by using a counter-holding tool (for the TDI guys I'm thinking the Metalnerd "Sprocket Buster" would be perfect).

This would drop the tool cost down to about $100. Much more reasonable.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:38 pm 
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If you really need it, rent one from GDE - $30 with the pins. Lord willing, you won't need another shot at it for 100,000 miles. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:11 pm 
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cevans wrote:
This would drop the tool cost down to about $100. Much more reasonable.


How about free? If you have the scrap metal. This is what I will use:
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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:13 pm 
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Squeeto wrote:
cevans wrote:
This would drop the tool cost down to about $100. Much more reasonable.


How about free? If you have the scrap metal. This is what I will use:
Image


Yep that will work, I made a thing like that to hold the fan pulley on my 96 Dodge.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:35 am 
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Or borrow if you are near a member with tools.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:53 am 
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cevans I believe is just asking if there is another use for this overpriced tool. The short Answer is No, you can accomplish CAM gear removal with either the TDI tool or a homemade version as stated above. However this tool is handy for timing belt changes since you would not have to remove the alternator or install the CAM locking pins when using the CAM gear holder (VM.1085), just not necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Thats what I needed to know - expensive lock thing makes the job potentially easier as you can just bolt it in and do you work around it.

So, option 1 is: large holding tool & flywheel 90 degree pin
Option 2 is: cam lock pins, flywheel 90 degree pin and a counter-holding tool.

Sound right?

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Anyone used this tool before or know anything about the manufacturer? Price is right and it appears it could work very similar to the Miller tool.

http://www.amazon.com/Sir-Tools-SIR2727-Universal-Lock-Vice/dp/B0015PMSGI/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt/177-7247277-5287116

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:04 pm 
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The cam locking pins cannot hold the torque required to retorque the nuts that hold the cam gears to the cams. this toll is nessesary to hold the cam gears in place when reinstalling the gears.

And it just makes the job easier.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:48 am 
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I have made my own cam holder for the D24/d24T engines. It works well and I could use it on the CRD, but the VM 2.8 is a bit different. I bought the VM cam sprocket holder because it looks to make that job much easier with less risk of bad things happening.

YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:52 am 
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cevans wrote:
This would drop the tool cost down to about $100. Much more reasonable.


The sprockets need to be held firmly in place when torquing the bolts which is where I see these manual tools fail. You are not just applying a counter force to your wrench, you must also ensure the sprocket is held in place to within a fraction of a tooth.

WolverineFW wrote:
Anyone used this tool before or know anything about the manufacturer? Price is right and it appears it could work very similar to the Miller tool.

http://www.amazon.com/Sir-Tools-SIR2727-Universal-Lock-Vice/dp/B0015PMSGI/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt/177-7247277-5287116


I can't see this device working very well either. Basic grade school science tells us that triangles are much stronger than rectangles. This tool should be X-bracing between sprocket holes. I plan to do it with some bolts and a couple of pieces of appropriately drilled/slotted steel bar to brace the sprockets together.

Edited to fix the quoting

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Last edited by dirtmover on Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:15 am 
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dirtmover wrote:
Squeeto wrote:
cevans wrote:
This would drop the tool cost down to about $100. Much more reasonable.


The sprockets need to be held firmly in place when torquing the bolts which is where I see these manual tools fail. You are not just applying a counter force to your wrench, you must also ensure the sprocket is held in place to within a fraction of a tooth.

WolverineFW wrote:
Anyone used this tool before or know anything about the manufacturer? Price is right and it appears it could work very similar to the Miller tool.

http://www.amazon.com/Sir-Tools-SIR2727-Universal-Lock-Vice/dp/B0015PMSGI/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt/177-7247277-5287116


I can't see this device working very well either. Basic grade school science tells us that triangles are much stronger than rectangles. This tool should be X-bracing between sprocket holes. I plan to do it with some bolts and a couple of pieces of appropriately drilled/slotted steel bar to brace the sprockets together.


Little error with your quoting here. I just said make a holder bar for free. So I am not sure if this:

dirtmover wrote:
I can't see this device working very well either.

is for my bar or WolverineFW's device.

Just for those who don't know yet. The idea with the holding bar method is you don't care where the sprockets end up so you don't need to bolt them together. The alignment is made with the cam locking pins, the sprockets are unkeyed (thus infinitely positionable). The sprockets are kept just-loose, the timing belt is properly positioned and any belt tension removed, then the sprocket bolts are tightened down.

My holder bar is just used to put back pressure on the sprocket when you tighten the bolt so you don't snap the locks.


edit:Maybe some confusion here. When I stated "any belt tension removed" I mean that the tensioner is applied (belt tight) with sprockets loose so that the tension is equivalent along the belt. With the sprockets able to settle in to this new location (ie new, unstretched belt), any belt tension at the cams is removed.
Uneven belt stretch along the belt is the reason the engine is turned over a few times to see if anything moved before calling the job done.


Last edited by Squeeto on Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:48 am 
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Pump/cam/stroke timing on any diesel is critical. The older VW/Audi/Volvo D16/D20/D24 engines can have timing adjusted either by rotating the pump, or the injection sprocket. You can also rotate the cam to crank pulley, too. Exact positioning of the cam, the flywheel, etc was not as important when changing the timing because adjusting the pump timing if things were not absolutely spot on was relatively easy. A very slight difference in pump/cam timing makes a HUGE difference in performance.

with the modern electronically timed systems I am very reluctant to risk even a slight misalignment, so I am willing to buy all of the tools needed to ensure peak performance. I am willing to concede that it may be possible for a true Jedi master to change the belt and get the timing spot on without them, but *I* don't know for sure that I can, and am willing to pay for the right tools. This is not a gasser, where halfway right can work sort of OK. In any case, it does save time and trouble, even for a Jedi master.

as always, YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:33 am 
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LMWatBullRun wrote:
Pump/cam/stroke timing on any diesel is critical. The older VW/Audi/Volvo D16/D20/D24 engines can have timing adjusted either by rotating the pump, or the injection sprocket. You can also rotate the cam to crank pulley, too. Exact positioning of the cam, the flywheel, etc was not as important when changing the timing because adjusting the pump timing if things were not absolutely spot on was relatively easy. A very slight difference in pump/cam timing makes a HUGE difference in performance.

with the modern electronically timed systems I am very reluctant to risk even a slight misalignment, so I am willing to buy all of the tools needed to ensure peak performance. I am willing to concede that it may be possible for a true Jedi master to change the belt and get the timing spot on without them, but *I* don't know for sure that I can, and am willing to pay for the right tools. This is not a gasser, where halfway right can work sort of OK. In any case, it does save time and trouble, even for a Jedi master.

as always, YMMV.


The large cam lock tool probably has its place if you need to do something that doesn't require replacing the timing belt. But since we are replacing it, it is better to loosen the sprockets.

We only consider 4 alignment parts (left cam, right cam, crank, pump) why would you introduce 2 more by solidly holding the cam sprockets? We know that timing belts stretch and a new belt is different from the old so let the sprockets naturally find their position along the belt. This way they are not forcing a stress due to the large locking tool or the old belt position.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the Large Cam Lock Tool For (VM.1085)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:50 am 
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Squeeto wrote:
LMWatBullRun wrote:
Pump/cam/stroke timing on any diesel is critical. <snip>A very slight difference in pump/cam timing makes a HUGE difference in performance.
with the modern electronically timed systems I am very reluctant to risk even a slight misalignment so I am willing to buy all of the tools needed to ensure peak performance.
as always, YMMV.


The large cam lock tool probably has its place if you need to do something that doesn't require replacing the timing belt. But since we are replacing it, it is better to loosen the sprockets.

We only consider 4 alignment parts (left cam, right cam, crank, pump) why would you introduce 2 more by solidly holding the cam sprockets? We know that timing belts stretch and a new belt is different from the old so let the sprockets naturally find their position along the belt. This way they are not forcing a stress due to the large locking tool or the old belt position.


My understanding is that the cam sprocket holding tool is used when the sprockets need to be removed, i.e. when the water pump is being changed. This clamp avoids both overstressing the alignment pins, and at the same time preventing unwanted camshaft movement. Some may elect to wait on WP replacement, but given the amount of time
required to remove the WP, on the CRD I will elect to change it when I do the belt.

As regards alignment, the camshafts need to be in the right relationship to each other and to the crank and the IP. I have not read up on this yet, but would be surprised if there was not a procedure to properly align the camshafts proper with the head prior to cam sprocket alignment. If the valve timing is even slightly off, or the pump timing, relative to the pistons, performance and ruling fuel economy can be suboptimal, even if the engine does not show any gross misalignment. The cam pins are there to ensure alignment, and once the clamp is off after tightening the bolts, I will be checking them AND the shaft position to be certain everything is lined up to spec, both before and after rotating the engine manually.

Going back to my experiences with the D24/D24T engines, even a very slight variation in cam/ pump timing makes a substantial difference in fuel economy. Well timed D24T engines demonstrate fuel economy in the low to mid 30s; poorly tuned ones can be as bad as the low 20s. Modern high pressure pumps are even more finicky. I suspect but have no data to prove that many of the CRD Liberties that show poor mileage are the result of slight misalignment of the camshafts.

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