considering a CRD

badabbotts · **Joined:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:41 am **Posts:** 1

After lurking here for a month or so and reading all the post on the CRD's, both the positives and the negatives (EGR problems, tranny filters, etc.) would any of you consider NOT buying a CRD if you could do it over....

I currently have a WJ 4.7 HO that's killing me with gas costs.

I've driven a couple of the CRD's (an 05 and 06) and found them to "feel" very different, the 05 was fun to drive the 06 felt like the brakes were dragging. But I'm still considering the CRD but wonder about reliability.

spoonplugger1 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:45 am

I'd buy another in a heartbeat. Best money I've spent in a long time.

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:45 am

Well, keeping in mind you're in a KJ forum, I would say absolutely go for it. I'm only ay 9k miles on my '05 but other than the tranny filter I haven't had any problems. Although I miss being able to take the top off my Wrangler (and the manual xmission), the towing capability and mileage benefits of the CRD have been outstanding. The CRD gets better mileage than our Subaru WRX wagon! Wife and I took a group of friends up into the mountains to go skiing a couple weeks ago and were driving the CRD and WRX. filled up at the same stations and the WRX consistently needed .5 - 1 gallon more than the CRD. I was amazed!

And toying my 3,500lb covered motorcycle trailer is a breeze. My TJ would really struggle sometimes (and get 9mpg vs 20mpg w/ the CRD).

I like the 70k mile warranty we received on the '05's - made me less weary to buy a first model year although I wish I had the Stability control of the '06.

So in all, I'm very happy w/ my purchase and would certainly do it again.

dog_party · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:07 pm

Welcome to the forum badabbotts!

I will be buying another CRD as soon as my fiancee's old Nissan dies. She loves it this truck, I love this truck. I can't make this thing sweat no matter how much weight I load on it, and I always get 20MPG or better, even when I spend the whole tank in rush-hour traffic practicing my wide-open-throttle application techniques.

But there is a learning curve to this thing. Driving an automatic is different for me (haven't had one since my first car). Driving a diesel is REALLY different. It's a blast, but it's different getting used to the diesel power curve. It's amazinginly potent after you get used to it though! :-)

My next CRD might be a Gladiator, or a Rescue, or another KJ. But, yes, I'd buy this truck all over again in a heartbeat.

valkraider · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:18 pm

Yes, I would buy another. I love this vehicle. There are things I would hope DC improves on, but that is true of almost any vehicle, and most are not related to the CRD.

Like why does the DC sirius reciever (not the navigation one) not show artist/album/song information when in Sirius mode - but DOES show the information when in FM mode?

Why does the AC come on when set to FLOOR ONLY mode?

Why don't the back side windows open like vents in most SUVs and mini vans?

Things like that - but the CRD engine and the Liberty in general are great in my opinion.

bbo · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:17 pm **Posts:** 382

've probably had a little bit more issues with my CRD than others ... two bad glow plugs ... bad rear brakes ... dealer overfilling oil on change ... early stall fixed by TSB.

But with a little patience and restraint, my dealer has been very forthcoming and honest. It seems to have worked out most of the bugs ( waiting for the almost guaranteed egr failure though) and I am still happy I bought it

The torque almost makes me giddy sometimes ... it's fun to pull into a snow bank (cleaner than mud) and just feel the power of the diesel pull you through. I can't remember ever trying to rev this thing up to get it to move ...

one thing I really like is the low end grunt noise all diesels make and the way this thing seems to quiet down when cruising at highway speeds.

NJBill · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:10 pm

10K miles on ours and not a single problem. I would buy another in a minute.

Ripple · **Posted:** Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:53 pm

I like my sport. it is a bit cramped, has crappy cloth seats and has a bumpy ride. but it is the only small, diesel, 4x4 and for nearly 20K new it's a sure bet. looks like they hold resale well too.

spencevans · **Posted:** Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:57 am

Some days I wish had my '96 Land Cruiser back but overall I love my CRD. The problems have been minimal and I always get over 21 mpg and occasionally I get over 30 mpg like I did today on the way back from Moab. My only complaints are it's cargo area is a little small, the cloth seats get dirty easily, and it has an independent front suspension. Gook Luck.

Wilmo · **Posted:** Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:20 am

Its great! Only problem I've had is the front brake rotors needed to be replaced (6000 miles) - bad batch obviously as a few other owners have reported this. I've not had any of the gearbox or EGR problems.

Mines lifted (Rocky Road Combo lift front, OME 927 springs rear with Rancho shocks all round), which makes it very capable off-road. The power is amazing, and it cruises effortlessly on the Highway.

I'd recommend buying the Mopar seat covers to keep the cloth seats clean if that's a concern.

otty · **Joined:** Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:28 pm **Posts:** 22

I have an 05 limited and have mixed feelings about it. I love the performance of the engine and the torque. I have had to have my Liberty in 4 times for problems that are likely EGR problems. The EGR has been replaced and It seems to be OK now, but it is too soon to be sure.

The vehicle handles well is fun to drive and the engine sounds great once you get used to a diesel engine. In spite of my problems I like the CRD, but worry about long term reliability. I'm glad I bought the extended warranty.

Would I do it again: I'm not sure. I might, but I would certainly consider other SUV's as well. The reason I would possibly shy away from the liberty would be because of reliability concerns.

As far as economy with the CRD, there are some false economies. The cost of diesel fluctuates much more wildly then even gas does in the U.S. My sense is that the significantly increased cost of diesel in winter and slightly higher cost in summer (although it is sometimes cheaper in summer) reduces much of the cost savings of the better fuel economy. I do feel good about using less fuel (better fuel mileage) given what I have been reading about global warming and how higher mileage vehicles can make a big difference. I am willing to pay more for diesel and break even with higher mileage because of that. I don't however, believe it is reasonable for oil companies to charge high for diesel which requires less refining. I hope Biodiesel takes off in my region!

What I love about the Liberty CRD

Engine performance and torque
Handling now that I have put better tires on
Short turning radius
Awesome Navigation system with RB1 radio
Styling
Large fuel tank
Confidence in bad weather and road conditions

What I don't like about the Liberty CRD

Reliability could be much better and DC could be more upfront about issues.
Seats could be more comfortable. I spent extra for the limited so I could get the more adjustable seats and that helps.
Lack of storage space. There are few hidden storage areas so that it is hard to stash the little stuff one carries in their vehicle.
Limited leg room in the back seat (a function of the compact size of the vehicle.
Back seat does not recline.
Heating/AC controls are a bit odd, but the heater and AC work well.

In conclusion I would consider getting another Liberty CRD, but it would not be an absolute certainty. I am not thinking of getting rid of it unless I had more reliability problems. If I were to get something else I would miss the Liberty. I would not consider a Gas Liberty because of the poor fuel mileage on the 6 cylinder.

One final recommendation: If you buy a new one, negotiate with the dealer to put on better tires (search this site for recommendations) Better tires make a big difference in handling and comfort and you may be able to do it with minimal cost if you can trade your new OEM tires before the car has been driven.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

20k miles and only 1 trip to dealer for repair (EGR/Reflash). I would buy again, but would get better tires. The stock tires are awful and that is being complimentary. I changed mine out at 12k, but found out later that dealer does "alot" of tire changes for customers to Michlines when requested (cust pays difference). I only wish he had told me when I got it.

Things I don't like are minor: very limited storage, only 1 outlet plug, etc. I have never gotten 30mpg like some, but regularly get 24 which is way better than Xterra I traded at 17mpg.

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

Well, I love mine, but I am not happy with the direction of Jeep and I have concerns about DC's customer support and ability to fix the problems that exist. Mine has the tranny shudder, and the dealer's around here are so busy I have not been able to get it in. I can avoid the stutter, but it is annoying. It did not do it at first, but it does now. I don't have any EGR problems, yet-- but expect them sooner or later. The oil in the intercooler annoys me. The ball joints p*ss me off too and DC should be beaten. How could they not fix something that will kill people when it fails?

What really worries me is the tranny, I wonder if the software fudging the Torque Converter lockout has ruined it the few times it has occurred. I have a bad feeling that the software flash fixes the problem, but the damage is done and right after the expiration of the warranty-- the Torque Converter will take a nose dive. I bought the extended warranty because I was worried about this stuff and would highly recommend it on this vehicle.

Bottom line:

Expect ball joints to go out
Expect to get a Provalent or equivalent or to have problems with the fouling
Expect to get new EGR every once in a while.

If this is to be your primary vehicle I would consider it long and hard, but if your going to buy it, do it now before even more emissions crap gets bolted on next year. If you are buying a recreational vehicle, or a second driver, and can afford the downtime associated with Chrysler fixing their stupidity, then I would go for it. I bought mine as a secondary vehicle and bought the warranty because I fully expected problems.

Warning: Rant follows

As for the Liberty, I still don't understand why the first vehicle they put a CRD in was a Liberty-- it should have been the Wrangler. Off road junkies want diesel and are willing to put up with some bugs. Soccer mommies who buy Liberties and read consumer reports think diesel's are, in the words of Consumer Reports "smelly and slow". Does DC think this vehicle is going to improve this reputation with the soccer mommies when they have to replace EGR valves, have tranny studders, and suck oil into the intercooler until it breaks something? Meanwhile the new Wrangler gets the mini-van motor of the soccer mommies, instead of a CRD. Wow. Smooth move DC, smooth like Ex-lax. Jeep's salvation is that so far Hummer is even stupider-- they put a 200 horsepower pathetic gaser in a 5800 pound H3 they are selling for $30,000+. No wonder GM is loosing money. If I want my CRD to accelerate like the H3- I can just tow someone's H3 behind it.

I don't like the looks of the Liberty as much as the XJ and resent the downgraded off road capability-- the lack of ground clearance and the botched execution of the IFS in particular (not that it has IFS so much as it is a poor design). The whole thought of a "bull bar" Mopar accessory just for asthetic purposes is the epitamy of what I hate about DC corporate (corporate in general). I would make a few remarks about the people who came up with that Bull Bar, or the Jeep Compass, or the idea of a Jeep being anything with the Jeep grille slats, or the idea of listing the 4x4 trail rated "badge" as a "feature" on the vehicle's options list, but this is a friendly place and I don't want to get banned from the board, so I will leave my comments about the "demographics" of these marketing idiots who run Jeep to your imagination.

While I would not have bought a Liberty if it were not for the CRD, I can say that I have been impressed with the Liberty since I bought it: it is stout as a tank, the ESP is nice, and it is good off-road minus the ground clearance. It rides much better than a XJ on the road. It is more practical than a Wrangler. I wish it had more storage compartments (who came up with that goofy "compartment" by the power outlet in the center console? Just what can you put there anyway?). I also wish it had more lift options and came stock with steel bumpers.

Rant over.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

As for the Liberty, I still don't understand why the first vehicle they put a CRD in was a Liberty-- it should have been the Wrangler.

Why? DCX wanted to gauge sales reaction to a diesel engine in a vehicle that would be used where most people use them - on road. They already had the diesel in the European version Liberty, but not the wrangler. Even then, according to Deiter, it was extremely expensive and difficult to get the CRD EPA certified in our diesel antagonistic regulatory environment. Putting a diesel in a wrangler due for a model design change, with no previous diesel engine, would be an expensive and probably detrimental effort. You should be happy that they didn't - previous wrangler experiements turned out to be rewarded with less than stellar sales for their efforts. If they had repeated this with the diesel engine, it might have been the end of any DCX diesel vehicles for the US, if past history is any indicator.

DCX already heard the arguments on the wrangler similar to yours for something that became the rubicon - these posters swore that DCX wouldn't be able to keep something like the rubicon on dealer lots if DCX would just build a wrangler with real lockers, stronger diffs and the straight 6 engine. Same story for the Wrangler Unlimited - build a "real Jeep and they will come." DCX built both in Rubicon versions, even went beyond off roaders wish list - and they didn't come. It seems these armchair automotive experts are better at posting on the Internet than they at buying new vehicles. Sales of the Wrangler, Rubicon and Unlimited remain modest at best, less than the Honda CRV, which is a far inferior vehicle. Meanwhile, the so called soccer mom jeep, the Liberty outsells everything except for the Grand Cherokee.

Does lack of sales qualify for a reason?

Wilmo · **Posted:** Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:48 pm

Wilmo wrote:

Its great! Only problem I've had is the front brake rotors needed to be replaced (6000 miles) - bad batch obviously as a few other owners have reported this. I've not had any of the gearbox or EGR problems.

Mines lifted (Rocky Road Combo lift front, OME 927 springs rear with Rancho shocks all round), which makes it very capable off-road. The power is amazing, and it cruises effortlessly on the Highway.

I'd recommend buying the Mopar seat covers to keep the cloth seats clean if that's a concern.

I've also got a provent - had it since new practically, and it does save a lot of fouling of the intercooler with oil. I expect that the EGR will go at some point too, and will also have to replace the ball joints down the track.

My take is that if you want a no-fuss Liberty, buy the petrol one. If you want the economy and torque of the diesel, and are prepared to put up with the EGR being a possible problem, and prepared to fit a provent, then get the diesel.

If my tranny shuddered like some of the guy's cars on this forum I'd be selling my CRD. Everyone says it happens when cruising at around 55mph (88km/h) - since we only cruise on the highway at the posted limits of 80km/h, or 110 km/h - maybe this is why it doesn't happen to the CRD's in Australia.

Otherwise the CRD is a cool smallish very off-road capable 4WD that beats everything else available as they are all soft-roaders.

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

"Does lack of sales qualify for a reason?"

Well, that would be a good reason, but when we are comparing 8000 Liberty CRD's being sold all year (versus 166,883 total), I can't see how we are talking high sales anyway. Not to mention a Rubicon is not the same as a CRD engine: adding a locker or an axle is not the same, costwise or difficulty level, as swapping a motor/tranny out. We should find some TJ owners and ask if they would rather buy a diesel Wrangler non-Rubicon 4x4 or a gas Rubicon. I think the response would sway to the diesel, but it would be nice to have some hard evidence of how many would be interested. It would seem much cheaper to swap out suspension and gearing than the motor/tranny. Which, as you correctly point out, is probably why DC did not do it. However, I would think you could sell more CRD Wranglers than the 8,000 units of Liberties sold last year-- if the price difference between CRD and gas were roughly the same on the Wrangler line as it is on the Liberty line. Since they sale fewer Wranglers to start with, the percentage of diesel to gas would also be much higher. I could see it approaching 35% CRD sales on the Wrangler line easy. I don't think you will get as high a sales percentage, or numbers, on the Liberty.

If you do get that high of numbers, as it stands today-- you will get alot more complaints about the bugs than you would with the Wrangler folk, which is part of my point. If DC wants to see the response of normal folk driving a diesel, it had better work right from the start. I don't see soccer moms happy with the Libby CRD at this point. The first time it would start doing the transmission studder or go into limp mode and stop on them when the EGR dies-- it would be sold and they would bad mouth the thing to no end and generate all sorts of negative press about it. You can forget about them having anything nice to say about it if they have to take it back to the dealer 4 times in a couple months when it has less than 10,000 miles on it. I am afraid that the CRD introduction with the Libby is going to backfire on DC if they don't fix the bugs and it is going to be like GM diesels in the 80's all over again. I am even more afraid that there are people inside DC that want it to fail, so they can win their political victories (knowing corporate politics). The ball joint is another time bomb of bad publicity. It is the next Firestone Tire fiasco waiting to happen, but the oil in the intercooler and EGR valve are not much better.

Hope your right though, and DC knows what they are doing, for their sake. I wonder if another reason they may not have choosen the Wrangler may be limited production-- they may already be producing as many of the CRD's as the factory in Italy can churn out. I assume demand in Europe is still strong. Perhaps they are gearing up production before they can support larger scale sales that could occur with a Wrangler CRD introduction. Waiting for the new Wrangler is also a good point, I had forgot about the new model introduction. I am sorry to see they did not come out with the CRD as an option for the new Wrangler at its introduction, however. It would have been a great move to placate many that are upset over the elimination of the proven low-end torque producing in-line 6.

As for the low sales, I am certainly not privy to those figures, but in AZ, Rubicon's and Unlimited are everywhere. I see at least 4 Ruby's a day driving around (and not the same four), most days more. I see a Unlimited at least once a week and they have only been out a year. Of the Wranglers that I see that are not Ruby's, most have serious lifts. Of course, I can see that more ruby's and unlimited's are sold in AZ than elsewhere (but the same holds true for Wranglers, for that matter).

Anyway, I neeed to rant, but now I feel better.

the big dog · **Joined:** Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:25 pm **Posts:** 39

work out the bugs,an put it in a cherokee it would out sell every suv on the market.there is plenty enough torgue to handle the bigger vehicle.put in the wrangler and let these off-roaders start getting twice the fuel mileage,and it would give the gas one a run for its money,BUT FIRST THEY GOT TO TAKE CARE OF THESE STUPID PROBLEMS.o yea and give us a manual tranny too!or change the engines to a cummins, now thats the ticket

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:36 pm

Sounds like this whole argument boils down to "if it's not a Wrangler, it's not a Jeep", and therefore unworthy of being built.

the big dog · **Joined:** Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:25 pm **Posts:** 39

sounds like they got a bunch of white collars deciding what blue collars like to me.i like a deisel, its in my blood. came from driving a truck when i was younger.i even like gm deisels even though they suck for reliability,with their throwaway fuel pumps and pdms that were located in the wrong location for longevity. dc should have learned from ford on the 6.0 that a egr valve has no place on a deisel engine. you cannot i repeat connot run a dirty fuel like#2 deisel thru it and it work properly. not possible.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

dc should have learned from ford on the 6.0 that a egr valve has no place on a deisel engine. you cannot i repeat connot run a dirty fuel like#2 deisel thru it and it work properly. not possible.

Since neither Ford or DCX has a choice on whether to comply with EPA diesel emissions law, and egr is the only practical technology so far that helps meets those emissions, there isn't much to learn. Even gasolene engines with egr are having problems with failed and clogged valves. One of the problematic brands? Honda Odessy, Pilot and MDX. Several TSB's out on those vehicles to drill out the egr valve passages when they clog, as well as warranty extensions and outright egr replacments. Symptoms? Rough idle, bucking, lurching and rough transmission activity after acceleration on highway. Sound familar? EGR is a mess alright, but nothing else has surfaced that works to meet EPA emissions yet. If it had, someone would have used it by now on mass market vehicles.

Too bad it shortens engine life, pollutes engine oil, and reduces mileage. Without another technology to replace egr, there isn't much they can do if they want to sell diesels in this country.

considering a CRD

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