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need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69133		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  NavyHT [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
HI everyone, I was going to sell my 2005 Liberty CRD, but decided to try and fix it first. Right now it has 124K miles and needs a new timing belt ( but the belt and timing were checked and both were OK), it is running rough, smoking (black), has power, but is making a rattling/knocking sound when you give it fuel, but starts right up and idles fine, codes are for # 1&3 injectors low voltage side/fault to ground, or open circuit.The shop where it is at right not does not know if the engine is bad or the ecm or injectors are bad, they can't see two going out at the same time, they haven't worked on these particular types of diesel engines and do not want to tear into the engine and rack up $$ for nothing, good of them. I need help to get this thing running, I think it's a bad ecm circuit that fires these two injectors and that's making the knocking sound ( I hope and pray ) it's my wife's vehicle, she got it new in 2005, hasn't had it running for going on over three months now, we need it running soon because we'll be in our motorhome full time in about three weeks, we live near Roseburg, Oregon, so does anyone know of a good mechanic with these VM Vitori 2.8 CRD engines around here?? :pepper:
Author:  geordi [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
I would contact Sir Sam, but my first question would be this:

If the shop isn't experienced with these engines, how would you KNOW that they were correct in their diagnosis of the timing belt and the timing? You cannot check the timing belt without tearing all the way TO the belt, so you might as well replace it then, ESPECIALLY at that mileage. You *could* try to use the pins without tearing everything down... BUT - Again, if this shop isn't familiar with this engine, the chances that they have the pins and know how to use them are not good.

I strongly suspect the timing. Bad noises are almost always mechanical with these things.
Author:  NavyHT [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
The shop did get to the timing belt and inspected it and the timing, they borrowed the the dealer tools needed from the dealer to do this, their a good shop, just haven't worked on one of these engines. I was just told by another shop that had a customer with the same issues exactly as mine, what it turned out to be was the turbo waste gate solenoid valve stuck open I believe, they said this causes ( and they do not know why ) the knocking/rattling sound you here, like it's a bad engine, they said once they replaced this solenoid, it ran fine, so I'm hoping this is the whole issue with ours. They also said this caused the the codes for #1 & 3 injectors to display as ours is, they said no code for the solenoid ever displayed though. The solenoid valve cost about $100 and another $100 or so for them to replace it, and they will replace the timing belt since that's opened up already and is past due for one, so we got lucky that the belt didn't slip or break or jump time. I'll let ya know if this was the problem all along. :pepper:
Author:  racertracer [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
NavyHT wrote:
The shop did get to the timing belt and inspected it and the timing, they borrowed the the dealer tools needed from the dealer to do this, their a good shop, just haven't worked on one of these engines. I was just told by another shop that had a customer with the same issues exactly as mine, what it turned out to be was the turbo waste gate solenoid valve stuck open I believe, they said this causes ( and they do not know why ) the knocking/rattling sound you here, like it's a bad engine, they said once they replaced this solenoid, it ran fine, so I'm hoping this is the whole issue with ours. They also said this caused the the codes for #1 & 3 injectors to display as ours is, they said no code for the solenoid ever displayed though. The solenoid valve cost about $100 and another $100 or so for them to replace it, and they will replace the timing belt since that's opened up already and is past due for one, so we got lucky that the belt didn't slip or break or jump time. I'll let ya know if this was the problem all along. :pepper:



Sounds like neither shop knows what is going on with the CRD. I never heard of a turbo boost selenoid valve being the cause of a rattle in the engine.

Start off by posting the engine codes here so that we can get an idea as to what is going on and at least begin to direct you in the right direction.
Author:  geordi [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
NavyHT wrote:
The shop did get to the timing belt and inspected it and the timing, they borrowed the the dealer tools needed from the dealer to do this, their a good shop, just haven't worked on one of these engines. I was just told by another shop that had a customer with the same issues exactly as mine, what it turned out to be was the turbo waste gate solenoid valve stuck open I believe, they said this causes ( and they do not know why ) the knocking/rattling sound you here, like it's a bad engine, they said once they replaced this solenoid, it ran fine, so I'm hoping this is the whole issue with ours. They also said this caused the the codes for #1 & 3 injectors to display as ours is, they said no code for the solenoid ever displayed though. The solenoid valve cost about $100 and another $100 or so for them to replace it, and they will replace the timing belt since that's opened up already and is past due for one, so we got lucky that the belt didn't slip or break or jump time. I'll let ya know if this was the problem all along. :pepper:



They don't know what the heck they are doing in there. Neither shop does.

First of all - We do not have a wastegate turbo. That big vacuum motor on the top of the turbo doesn't connect to a wastegate, it connects to variable vanes inside the turbo and physically changes the speed of the turbo by opening or closing. There isn't a "relay" on this either. It is controlled by a vacuum modulator that is attached to a vacuum storage canister on the passenger wheel well, and that is fed vacuum from an electronic check valve. Want to see if your turbo's vanes are working? Idle the engine, and pull the vacuum hose off the modulator, and listen to the engine change pitch. That is the sound of your turbo's vanes when they are completely open.

Something wrong with the turbo's vacuum controller will cause... EXACTLY NOTHING TO CHANGE IN THE CYLINDERS. Period.

I'll try saying this again: Bad Mechanical Noises inside the engine cylinders ARE NOT CAUSED BY ANYTHING ELECTRONIC. The cylinders are mechanically connected together by the crankshaft on the bottom and the camshafts on the top. Anything wrong with the fuel supply (a bad injector, etc) will cause fuel explosion noises - popping. Metal banging grinding noises are caused when your timing is slipped and the valves have been impacted by the pistons - Your rocker arms are broken, which would be the metallic clatter you are hearing on the top of the engine.

They might *THINK* your timing is fine because they opened it up (I don't honestly believe this) and THINK the belt is OK - But the timing can slip by the crankshaft teeth swapping places on the belt when it gets loose from age. More than 2 teeth out, and you WILL NEED NEW ROCKERS. One tooth out has been known to still be OK, but running very poorly and ... wait for it... SMOKING with low power and odd performance.

Dude - You've described ruined timing perfectly. Your mechanic (both shops) aren't qualified to diagnose the air in your tires, b/c they have already attempted blowing smoke at you twice. You need to physically view the front of your motor and SEE that the timing cover is off, and rotate that engine BY HAND and see YOURSELF that all three pins fit in WITHOUT FORCING. If the pins do not have a small set of threads on them and tapered ends, THEY ARE NOT CORRECT. Lots of shops try to get by with allen keys or universal-type feeler gauges.... This will not work.

Now - If as I suspect, the camshaft pins will not seat easily and fully (the threads have to bottom out to be correct, that is why they only have like 3 threads on the pins) then your camshafts are not in alignment, and the top of the engine needs to come off to inspect the rocker arms.

$20 says you need new rockers - Trust me on this, search my posts. If it can go wrong with one of these engines, I have had it happen to me, or have witnessed it with others like RacerTracer. Between the two of us, we probably have experienced 80% of the possible failures of these engines.
Author:  NavyHT [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
:pepper: Well, I made a mistake when I said waste gate, you're right, it's a vacuum controlled pitch for the turbo, what he was talking about is the control switch that opens and closes the vanes with the vacuum, I simply misspoke what he was saying. However the shop that told me this, by simply changing this vacuum control switch/valve took care of the almost identical issues with their other client, that I'm experiencing with my rig. This all started as a sputtering, loss of fuel or air in the fuel system, and a miss or clanking sound and black smoke when you stepped on it, It was intermittent and went away ( which tells me that it isn't mechanical in nature ) and then a few days later started again with intermittent sputtering again, and a rattling sound at high RPMs, but then it would quit and rum smooth, but with a little black smoking when rived up. Then, at about 35mph, pow!, it started running like this. The timing is on the mark, I trust this shop, it has an ex- Chrysler-jeep mechanic and I know they checked the timing and it is on as far as they can see, but I'm sure they haven't tried to line up the pin holes and set the pins, so you might be absolutely right that it is off as you described. the codes are for a bad glow plug ( which I know I have ) and the other two are P261 & P263 ( injectors low side voltage ground fault, or open ), the shop that has my rig said that these codes don't mean a lot right now because a mechanical issue could cause the computer to throw them up because it can't detect a mechanical issue like broken rocker arms, etc. I believe it's in time because of what took place before this end result of what was going on prior, but I'm an idiot when it comes to this engine myself. I have cleaned the MAP & MAF sensors, and I have had no codes for them or the EGR valve, etc., so This thing starts right up and runs at idle with no knocking or pinging, etc., so because of that I personally do not think it's a bad engine, lower or top end stuff, any more suggestions?? I'm open for all advise and help. I can't do the test you want me to do, the shop is about 100 miles north of me, we live in the mountains well away from the nearest town, take care CRD buddies. :pepper:
Author:  geordi [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
If they haven't put the pins in, then they haven't checked the timing. That is the only way. You can't visually inspect diddly b/c there is nothing to inspect. No timing marks on the cams (if something is painted, it means nothing) b/c the cam gears are not keyed.

I apologize if my previous posts seemed a bit strong, but I really hate it when mechanics claim they did something on these engines, but are claiming they did it in a way that is impossible. You said they borrowed the pins from a dealer, so ***MAYBE*** they did actually bottom the pins in the two sides of the cam cover. That would at least validate that the cams were correct, and then the crank hole in the flywheel (which is a bugger to hit with the pin b/c the threads are usually filthy) can be tapped-to-find with a long 6mm allen key.

Now - The intermittent performance and smoking. Yea, mechanical things don't fix themselves, so that does point at something electronic. Thinking about the sounds... Did the clattering / clanking / missing sound... Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG-ee6K0vWw
Go about 1:40 into the video, and listen from there

Or this one, which is a much better example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYZalRLTzIg
Start at 0:50 into the video, and listen as he manually gooses the throttle.

- The tapping / higher pitched noise is the combustion happening while a valve is open, which you would hear when you have too much fuel and not enough air in the cylinders - The combustion is happening inside the less-solid exhaust manifold, and this is also what creates massive smoke. Too rich. With regard to the boost control solenoid - Have you ever changed the little paper filter on that? It is also quite possible that the MAF sensor is buggered, which if it is sending garbage data to the computer, could do ALL KINDS of wacky things. Try driving it without the MAF connected first. See if the problem magically is cured.

Also try bypassing the vacuum box and the first solenoid on the vacuum box, and connect that vac supply line directly to the vacuum modulator for the turbo. That will isolate the modulator, and if the problem persists... Then look at replacing that modulator. The problem I see, is that a bad modulator should cause a turbo underboost code. The only other sensor I know of that causes phantom screwyness is the "Mercedes Logo" sensor on the side of the airbox. THAT, is actually a SECOND MAP sensor, designed to read the atmospheric pressure as part of the nanny system for the stinking EGR. The problem is, if that is bad or buggy (or those wires get wrecked by the air hose right next to them - happens a lot) then the computer will also be getting garbled data, and do screwy things like intermittent limp mode that releases back to normal driving even within the same startup cycle.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
The MAGIC NUMBER for timing belt failure seems to be about 125k miles as several have found out the hard way :furious:

So as Gordi says replace the belt and set the timing PROPERLY before any more harm is done.
When you said POW at 35 mph could you be discribing a blown charged air hose? They have to be removed to check them properly. They will cause black smoke and poor power.
It could also be a blown inter cooler too.
Author:  NavyHT [ Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
To all, it's been a while since I was last on here, well the answer now to the problem, the shop that had the CRD, had the injectors checked out by Bosch, #3 was bad, they replaced it, then still no improvement, loud pinging/rattling sound, checked #4 cylinder, problem found, it's bad, scored cylinder walls, etc., now what the hell caused it, took the five gallons of fuel out of the tank and it's bad fuel, they said it smells like paint thinner or something of that nature, it leaned out #4 and seized it up, then us having to drive it home that way only made it worse. Seems the five gallons we got was contaminated in the bulk tank, since we only got the five gallons on an empty tank, and no more to dilute it any with good diesel, bam!!, now, what the hell are we going to do about it, called my insurance company, told them what the shop said happened and without further delay, they paid for a brand new from the factory engine long block, full warranty 3yrs/100,00 mi., and over 10K for it. Right now it runs fine, tight as hell and fuel economy sucks right now till it breaks in. Now is the time for me to get the GDE tune before this new engine get fouled up with soot, etc., will buy it in the next month, tell then, if this happens to anyone else, if you have full coverage insurance, check it out, it could save you a headache and your CRD from the scrap yard. :pepper:
Author:  Hexus [ Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
NavyHT wrote:
To all, it's been a while since I was last on here, well the answer now to the problem, the shop that had the CRD, had the injectors checked out by Bosch, #3 was bad, they replaced it, then still no improvement, loud pinging/rattling sound, checked #4 cylinder, problem found, it's bad, scored cylinder walls, etc., now what the hell caused it, took the five gallons of fuel out of the tank and it's bad fuel, they said it smells like paint thinner or something of that nature, it leaned out #4 and seized it up, then us having to drive it home that way only made it worse. Seems the five gallons we got was contaminated in the bulk tank, since we only got the five gallons on an empty tank, and no more to dilute it any with good diesel, bam!!, now, what the hell are we going to do about it, called my insurance company, told them what the shop said happened and without further delay, they paid for a brand new from the factory engine long block, full warranty 3yrs/100,00 mi., and over 10K for it. Right now it runs fine, tight as hell and fuel economy sucks right now till it breaks in. Now is the time for me to get the GDE tune before this new engine get fouled up with soot, etc., will buy it in the next month, tell then, if this happens to anyone else, if you have full coverage insurance, check it out, it could save you a headache and your CRD from the scrap yard. :pepper:


Probably one of your (crappily) designed ceramic glow plug tips burned off and scored the walls and finally lodged in the cylinder wall.

If I were a betting man.

I had to pull the head on mine when I changed the glow plugs because the tips had broken off of 2, luckily no damage to the cylinder walls.
Author:  msilbernagel [ Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: need help fast with 2005 Liberty CRD
Junk in fuel can also cause the injector to leak, or sometimes it "just does", and the excess fuel washes the oil off the cylinder.. destruction of the piston skirts, rings, and cylinder wall follow shortly.

So - it's a failure mode for injectors if you don't hear the problem and fix it quickly.

Mark
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