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Rocker arm issues
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69274		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Rocker arm issues
We have noticed an uptick in the number of rocker arm issues on the CRD engine in North America. We have some theories on this and some possible contributing factors.

1. EGR adds loads of soot back in the engine leading to very soot loaded oil at relatively low miles between changes. This soot can cause increased wear on the rocker arm needle bearings resulting in valves opening with less lift, cam lobe wear and eventual rocker arm failures.

2. The 0-W40 engine oil might be exasperating the issue. "theory" The mobil 1 just seems to flow too well even at room temperature and may not provide an adequate protective film layer at all times. 0-W40 was only speced in NA to have a higher cranking rpm in very cold temps (0F and below).

It is very important to note that there are over 250,000 2.8/2.5l VM engines sold outside North America from 2001-2007. The failure rate is much lower on these engines comparatively speaking. Outside the North America VM recommends various engine weight oils from 5-W30, 5-W40, 10-W40 and 15-W40 depending on average ambient temperatures. Additionally, the rest of the world has more relaxed emission standards and thus, less EGR is needed to be recycled through the engine, so less soot loading in the oil.

The combination of these two factors is reducing the life expectancy of this engine in North America.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
Glad I've been running 15-40 in it for years without EGR then.
Author:  irollgen4s [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
any typical mileage range that this happens around? I'm at about 167k without any of these issues, and i only had the GDE tune for the past 10k~ or so
Author:  striperman36 [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
I use 5-40 and an GDE Eco-Tune
Author:  Glend [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
Thanks to GDE for raising this issue, it's been on my list of concerns for years but for a reason beyond just the viscosity of the oils we are offered in the marketplace. Most diesel vehicle oils on the market these days are graded as CJ. CJ graded oils actually have substantially lower levels of Zinc (anti-wear additives) than their predecessors like the CH and CI oils. CJ oils were developed to protect the DPFs in newer CRD vehicles and rumours of cam follow wear have been circulating since they first appeared. Oil manufacturers claim backward compatibility but this is the Big Lie. The original owner's manual that came with my 2007 KJ CRD speciified 0W-40, to 5W-40 to 10W40 (the last of these listed for export models, of which mine is one). The grade is listed as CF. Most general use synthetics as still graded as CF, so it is entirely feasible to run a petrol synthetic graded at CF - which I do, but watch your soot levels and maybe change it more frequently (if you still have EGR active). My personal view (based on my experience and oil testing results) is that running a GDE tune, will reduce soot levels substantially and thus reduce wear across the board inside the engine on all components. THe combination of Provent type devices and soot reduction (or elimination altogether if you block) should increase engine longevity.
Sadly, the vehicle manufacturers and oil people don't care about the longevity of the vehicle because that stops people from buying new ones, and all of the oil product development effort is going into enviro and DPF friendly oils as this is what is rolling off the assembly lines today. Let's hope that less formulated oils continue to be available but I suspect they will be phased out over coming years. Owners of vehicles like ours need to lobby for retention of suitable products as the alternatives (like personal stockpiling) are just not reasonable.

For the record I run Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 and change it every 5000kms, GDE Eco tune and EGR blocked as well.
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
The mileage seems to vary. It may be more correlated to general maintenance practices and duty cycle.

There is not a clear diagnosis path, but measuring the mass air flow at idle with the EGR/FCV off will give the best indicator of worn rocker arms. A good engine will have flowrates in the range of 130-140 lb/hr at idle. If the flow is lower by 30% or more, it indicates the valves are not fully opening. Of course, these numbers infer that the turbo is working properly and no blockage in air filter.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
The mileage seems to vary. It may be more correlated to general maintenance practices and duty cycle.

There is not a clear diagnosis path, but measuring the mass air flow at idle with the EGR/FCV off will give the best indicator of worn rocker arms. A good engine will have flowrates in the range of 130-140 lb/hr at idle. If the flow is lower by 30% or more, it indicates the valves are not fully opening. Of course, these numbers infer that the turbo is working properly and no blockage in air filter.


Now I'm starting to think about how to figure out the flow rate via the MAP sensor data.
Author:  audiboy86 [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
What are some of the thing we can do to prolong the life of our rockers. I know changing the oil wieght is one and oil quality is a must also.
Author:  kdlewis1975 [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
My code reader will stream live data...most of the time...and it reports the MAF data in pounds per minute. It looks like I will be doing some measuring and math in the near future.

...had to fix this twice...stupid auto correct.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Author:  CATCRD [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
1. EGR adds loads of soot back in the engine leading to very soot loaded oil at relatively low miles between changes. This soot can cause increased wear on the rocker arm needle bearings resulting in valves opening with less lift, cam lobe wear and eventual rocker arm failures.

2. The 0-W40 engine oil might be exasperating the issue. "theory" The mobil 1 just seems to flow too well even at room temperature and may not provide an adequate protective film layer at all times. 0-W40 was only speced in NA to have a higher cranking rpm in very cold temps (0F and below).


Given that the factory oil change recommendation is from 6,250-12,500mi, what do you see as being a prudent oil change interval in the "best case", i.e. no EGR and using a quality synthetic 5W-40 oil?
Author:  mikey1273 [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
I been changing my oil every 6,250 miles. I had a lab test done on my oil twice and they tell me i can go up to 8000 miles with out problems but I don't. The reports show good low wear for meas well. I been using Shell Rotella 5W40 since I got the jeep at 38,000 miles and installed the provent at about 42,000 and GDE Eco tune some where around 50K.

My oil has been cleaner since the tune and don't turn black in 5 miles like before so there is something to the soot theory. I also have not needed to Clean my MAP sensor since doing both mods.

I hope that not using 0w40 and less egr of the tune along with the provent most keeping oil out of the intake does the trick.
Author:  racertracer [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
Hence the reason why I consistently use this stuff in my oil changes: http://barsproducts.com/catalog/view/2- ... ment-100qr.

It has been around since the 1950's.

You'll quickly see a difference.

Engine chatter will get lower as you drive.

Be prepared to see excessively dirty oil soon after your first oil change and consistently less thereafter.

I like the idea of being able to use 15w-40 in the CRD..... Should the oil change intervals increase though?

I can understand the rocker arms being of concern, but I would imagine that the lifters would be of similar concern since they are able to store the soot and sludge inside its cavity....... no?

I believe that a buildup of matter inside the lifters would definitely cause a major engine catastrophe

There are pictures on this board of used lifters that were removed by members after an engine tear down, that are filled with soot and sludge, then cleaned and put back into service.

My personal observation is that the lifters should have weep holes or escape holes for the soot and sludge to constantly be pushed out. Or with an open cavity that partially exposes the spring, just my two cents.
Author:  papaindigo [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
Quality oil, diesel rated, of a reasonable weight range given your climate (Alaska requirements are not the same as Arizona); a quality oil filter changed at every oil change interval; and IMHO I wouldn't think of going past a ca. 6,000 mile oil change interval regardless of lab results or driving habits (sorry just me but IMHO oil and filters are cheap while engine tear downs are not). Personally I like the Shell Rotella T6 Full Synthetic and a WIX oversize oil filter.

Plus GDE tune or other steps to reduce soot.

Not to argue with GDE but I was under the, perhaps mistaken, impression that most of the rocker/roller issues were directly related to timing belt failure. That said I do recall some folks who had to deal with the fallout of a timing belt failure did indicate stuck lifters as mentioned above.
Author:  jeepdan [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
Would the 0-w40 still be the the choice during the cold, north eastern winters?
After a little over 120,000 miles of 0-w40 use{ the last 45,000 almost soot free with the ECO tune} I'm wondering if it's too late to bother changing oils now :juggle:
Author:  Drewd [ Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
No, I wouldn't use Mobil 1 0w-40 because it is not a good diesel engine oil but I've run 5w40 Mobil 1 in winters down to -20 deg F in the Colorado mountains with no issues-just take it easy for first several miles and allow engine to idle for about a minute before you engage transmission.

I was running extended oil change intervals for most of the first 100k miles but oil is cheap compared to engine parts and to be safe, I'll probably lower my OCI to 5,000 miles.
Author:  galatron [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
I figured I would chime in here being that I've removed all the EGR stuff from exhaust manifold to intake manifold. Besides the weight reduction, I am getting small amount better fuel milage, and my oil is way cleaner than before, I'm on my third oil change, and I can say that comparing my oil with my other CRD and my friend's CRD oil changes, you can feel it between your fingers. When I did the top end rebuild, I'll say that I agree with what GDE said, I think that oil infused with carbon soot has something to do with the failures, it just seems to be too premature, I mean when you open up the enigne and look inside the intake, the channels are just covered, and by covered, I mean CAKED with soot and oily residue. This cannot be good for the engine! On the lubrication side of things, everything is just BLACK OIL, I've rebuild several engines, from lawn mowers, to Internationals; heck, one engine I built was 50 years old by the time I got to it and had seen several hundred thousands of miles with only oil changes, the oil in it looked to be a day old, the intake, clean, valve train good, rings were the only reason it needed to be rebuilt!

I believe that there could be a liability issue here.

These engines should not be failing at 100k
I had a Mercedes 240D in Fiji, we ran off coconut oil, transmission fluid, and used motor oil, the intake, and valve train didn't look as bad as the top end of my CRD.
Author:  ibedonc [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
papaindigo wrote:
Quality oil, diesel rated, of a reasonable weight range given your climate (Alaska requirements are not the same as Arizona); a quality oil filter changed at every oil change interval; and IMHO I wouldn't think of going past a ca. 6,000 mile oil change interval regardless of lab results or driving habits (sorry just me but IMHO oil and filters are cheap while engine tear downs are not). Personally I like the Shell Rotella T6 Full Synthetic and a WIX oversize oil filter.


this is what I run
same oil and wix 51773


Plus GDE tune or other steps to reduce soot.

Not to argue with GDE but I was under the, perhaps mistaken, impression that most of the rocker/roller issues were directly related to timing belt failure. That said I do recall some folks who had to deal with the fallout of a timing belt failure did indicate stuck lifters as mentioned above.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
When I saw the 0W-40 recommendation, I said no way in #ell.
Looks like I was correct, even for the Midwest.
With the Diehard P1 and oils like Amsoil AMO (High Zinc) 10W-40 with a lower pour point, the use of 0W-40 is ill advised to say the least. Even with 5W-50 Castrol Syntec that I used to use the CRD cranked up and started at -15F with the old Red Top. With the Rotela T6 that used to be great, but they reduced/eliminated the zinc, I did not like the way my centrifuge sounded when it wound down at shutdown, an indication of less than optimum lubrication. With 15K miles on the Amsoil AMO 10W-40 the centrifuge sounded fine and was lightly loaded with fine soot that got past the Amsoil 15 micron filter. When I changed out the Rotela T6 using a Wix filter, the centrifuge was loaded at 10K with soot and sludge.
Since we do not have any catalysts that can not tolerate zinc, high zinc oil or a zinc additive should be used along with a sensible viscosity oil. Unless you love changing out rockers and maybe camshafts. I changed out enough camshafts when I had the repair shop and do not need anymore practice.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
Papa

Green diesel is talking about abnormal WEAR of mechanical parts :lol:
A timing belt past it's prime and causing the engine to jump time is a totally different situation :banghead:

I add this to Rotella T6 at every change.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-ZDDP-MAXX-ENG ... 2d&vxp=mtr
Author:  user113 [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker arm issues
I typically add 4 oz. of this: http://www.militec1.com/

I have also started using the MicroGreen filter: http://www.microgreenfilter.com/ but I have yet to run a full oil change interval on it nor done a proper oil analysis, but the dipstick is MUCH cleaner than before.

For more discussion on oil than anybody should ever be subjected to, check out this forum: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... p?ubb=cfrm
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