has the trust gone ?

davidpals · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:22 am

hi - ive got a jeep 2.8 crd - coming home from work it just cut out (as if youd turned the ignition off ) ground to a halt -selected park - ignition off then on started up fine -no missing power loss or anything - did it again 3 times on way home . changed fuel filter - went for test drive - did it again afer about 2 miles .
parked it up - went for another test drive - fine
went to gym - on way back -ground to a halt . took some winding over to start this time , any way it started - got another 1/2 mile - did it again - started straight away this time - got home - dare not use it now - has the trust gone ?
please help - what should i check now ??
thanks in anticipation
dave p

naturist · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:33 am

Sounds like maybe a bad connection somewhere. I'd look first at the battery posts, then at the chassis end of the ground cable. Since everything is controlled by the engine computer, and we all know what happens when you cut power to a computer, just for a second . . . .

Big Montana · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:11 am

What's with the grinding? Is there problems in the transmission? I guess I've never had my jeep moving and then cut out, so I'm not sure what the sound would be. Could there be a problem with the torque converter bolts on the flywheel?

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:38 am

Big Montana wrote:

What's with the grinding? Is there problems in the transmission? I guess I've never had my jeep moving and then cut out, so I'm not sure what the sound would be. Could there be a problem with the torque converter bolts on the flywheel?

I think he's using the expression of "Ground to a halt" to mean it just plain stopped :dead:

davidpals · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:49 am

sorry i did mean ground to a halt - when the engine cut out approx 30 mph with it being auto - dont know if the box keeps the engine turning - but no warning lights came on until stopped and then the oil light came on etc. checked the battery terminals they seem tight . its just the overlong cranking of the engine to get it going again that is a mystery . i dont have much experience with common rail diesels . how many sensors are involved on this side of things and would it make you suspect one ? i will try and check out the electric connections. thanks for the replys

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:45 pm

Ok diesels pretty much only need 2 things to run 1) fuel (I assume you have eliminated air in the fuel as an issue) and 2) input from various electronic systems that give the engine permission to run.

So if fuel is being delivered to the injectors and the engine just randomly stop running you have a electric power issue somewhere. Could be as hard to find as a wonky sensor/relay. Could be a bad/loose ground. I'd suggest starting simple:
1) if this is an 06 model they are know for wiring harnes chaffing behind the fuel filter bracket which can cause intermittent electical problems so dig into that area and look for rubbed wires/shorts/etc and 2) how old is your battery? ALL of the electric systems are rather sensitive to current that slips the least bit outside of the "acceptable" range; if your battery is near the end of it's warranty or you are still running the original red top I'd replace the battery. Related to battery is your alternator output stable?

davidpals · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:23 pm

new red top battery 6 months ago - had a problem with it going completely flat overnight - only did it occasionally - not done it for a while .
i will have a look for rubbed harness and bad connections .
cant say that ive ruled out air in fuel - is there a pump in tank ? - can you run on pipe and can in engine bay - to rule out tank end ?
the car is an 04 2.8 crd limited - is it the signature where i should put this info ?
thanks again for the time
ps cant take it to the dealer - they wanted £460 + vat for a front prop - not fitted - cant imagine what they charge for an intermittent problem solving session.!!!
cheers dave p

sota · **Joined:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:44 pm **Posts:** 379

not a diesel guy by any means, but the fact you're not getting any warning lights until everything stops (and then it's only oil pressure) combined with the long crank that's cropped up tells me to look at the injectors or items related to them. since there is a known issue with wire chaffing I'd start there as well as look at the ground wires coming from the block to the chassis.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:55 pm

did you try pumping the fuel filter pump - so see if there was air in the fuel head?

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:05 pm

Check that your fuel filter is screwed on tight and the primer pump gets firm within a few pumps. When my engine died when warm, it was a bad crankshaft position sensor. Several others have had this problem. Do a search and you'll find some testing methods and how to replace it.

kingjeep · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:33 pm

fule pump just a gess

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:06 pm

KingJeep: We do not have a "fuel pump" as such, the first stage of the high pressure injection pump on the motor is designed to suck fuel all the way from the tank and THROUGH the fuel filter. Thus, ANY air leaking into the system (which is actually designed to be a pressure system) creates massive problems.

Davidpals: When you removed the old fuel filter, did the small center black o-ring come with it? This has been a source of problems on MANY fuel filter changes, as it cannot be easily seen when it sticks on the fuel head, right up at the top around the big screw. Then when you install the new filter, the two gaskets crush into each other, don't seal properly, and you get air leaking everywhere - Starving your engine at anything more than the most modest demand for fuel.

The second most likely source of an air leak is the fuel heater plug - Look at your fuel filter head, at the two plugs on it. Are they the same size, or close to it? Is the one closer to the driver's fender wet or smell of diesel when you unplug it? If you answered yes to either one of these... You have the first-gen fuel head, which is prone to overheating, cracking, leaking, and possibly even causing a fire. UNPLUG THAT PLUG and leave it out no matter what - It is the summer, you don't need the fuel heated!

I do strongly believe that you are having an air-in-fuel problem, which quite often will not present with any kind of a code. Luckily, both the checks I asked about are free. Once you have verified that you only have the one rubber gasket on the center of the fuel filter (and the big one at the outer edge)... Pump the big plunger a few times until it gets hard, then open the bleeder screw on the opposite side. You just forced out some air. Do this again and again until there is actual fuel coming out, and then leave it alone for a few hours. When you come back, try pumping it again, and see how much (if any) air comes out. If there is a significant amount... You have an air leak somewhere else.

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:43 pm

Would a crank position sensor stop a motor dead?

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geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:29 pm

ChooChooman74 wrote:

Would a crank position sensor stop a motor dead?

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I don't *think* so... This is why chasing electronic problems is so difficult. As far as I know, the camshaft sensor is only used when starting the motor to compare with the crank sensor so the engine knows its own position... But if the crank sensor was being buggy, I would think that would throw a code fairly quickly.

He said he has an 04, and referenced payment in pounds sterling... Which tells me that this is a UK vehicle. That might change some things in the diagnosis.

Glend · **Posted:** Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:12 am

I agree that it could be a sensor related problem. I know of at least two cases where the exact same symptoms were eventually traced to a sensor failure. My mechanic friend suggests changing all the sensors after 100,000 as they are degraded by heat over time. Crank, cam, input and output speed sensors, etc

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:59 am

He has an 04 CRD 2.8L so he has the pre-2005 fuel filter head (5069072AA) not the later one with the big priming plunger and problemattic fuel heater plug. I don't offhand know the exact procedure for bleeding that fuel head but I do know it's got a small knarled presumably primer pump handle on top but I don't know what to loosen to bleed air. That said air in the fuel is possible and it's worth checking.

I'm also curious about the comment that his previous battery intermittently went flat overnight so he now has a new battery. While intermittent discharge could be just a bad battery it also could be a sign of a drain (intermittent or not) on the battery when the vehicle is shutdown and the new battery is better able to stand that drain. If so it's possible that the drain, while not enough to kill the battery, is enough to lower the voltage to the point that the electronics get confused and shut the engine off. Not also the mention of lots of winding to start at least once. This makes be wonder about 1) alternator output which can be check and 2) power use with engine off which can also be tested although if it's intermittent that's a problem.

Just some thoughts.

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

I had a similar problem a few years ago, it ended up being a large wiring harness chafed through behind the alternator. Worth a look, good luck.

Billwill · **Posted:** Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:04 pm

Hi David, I agree with the general consensus here that it is probably an air-in-fuel problem or an electrical problem.

When it fails you need to do the procedure of priming the fuel filter to get air out and if that improves matters then you can start looking for air leaks.

I would also suggest that you check that the battery terminals are very clean and tight and check that the main earthing strap earthing the engine to the chassis is also clean and tight.

I had a very similar problem on my 2002 Export CRD where the Jeep would suddenly glide to a halt and as you stop the oil light comes on...don't panic about the oil light...... it is basically saying that the engine cut out.

In the fuse box under the "hood' as our USA friends call it....there are lots of relays.
One relay is marked as the ASD or Auto Shut Down relay. I had a loose connection going to this relay which would cause the engine to cut off if I went over a bump in the road. I found the bad connection and all works well now.

You could try pulling out the ASD relay while the engine is at idle and you should see the same symptoms....dies completely and oil light comes on! Try swapping this relay over with an identical one and clean the relay pins while you are about it.

Try and get some error codes. If you do not have access to a code reader then your model should work whereby you turn the ignition key ON/OFF rapidly 4 times without starting the engine. With the ignition left ON after the forth time the odometer cycles through error codes from oldest to newest. It takes a few attempts to get this method to work and often the last two digits are transposed so a "P1025" code may be true or could be a "P1052" error for example.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:46 pm

And yes, a faulty crank position sensor can stop you dead. The motor will just smoothly shut down. The behavior in regards to whether it will restart may be random.

3 weeks ago my crank position sensor decided to give up the ghost. Actually as soon as the engine hit operating temp it shut down. I caught a ride to work that day and was able to restart it that evening. It died again within a mile of home...again as soon as it had gotten up to operating temperature. I waited two hours, walked back to it. It restarted without issue and I drove it the rest of the way home. Things have been fine since I replaced it.

I'm not saying this is your problem but don't completely rule it out.

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CATCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:54 pm

ChooChooman74 wrote:

Would a crank position sensor stop a motor dead?

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Yes, it can. And frequently without a CEL. See here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=66905&p=734354#p734354

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