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 Post subject: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Hi, I need help identifying an issue with my 05 CRD (189,600 miles) transmission. About two months ago, after driving in city traffic for about 20 plus miles the 3-4 shift started to come in a higher RPMs than usual, and then down shifting prematurely. Very hard to keep the 30 to 35 MPH speed limits in the city. No noticeable issues at highway speed (50 plus MPH). Last week, after driving to downtown, about 18 miles one way or 45 minutes of city driving, in the way back, started to do the unusual shifting, and halfway back home the warning transmission temperature light came on. I pulled to a side street, checked the fluid level (normal) and let it idle in neutral, as recommended in the manual, for about 15 to 20 minutes. The light was still on. I drove slowly back home shifting manually 1-2-3, and in neutral at stop lights. Pulling into my driveway the light turn off. This week took the CRD to the dealer and after two days they could not repeat the conditions. They found the fluid a little cloudy and replaced it. Last night driving to and back from downtown in the last two blocks I got the same unusual shifting.

I wonder, as this conditions happens after driving in the city for a while,that means constant shifting, hot fluid, if the transmission cooler is not flowing correctly, or if the so called cloudy fluid is because I have a leak in the cooler? Any one with an idea?
Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Not sure what they mean by "cloudy" which is normally related to water in the tranny fluid. That's possibly an issue with a gasser KJ as the tranny cooler is in the bottom of the radiator but on the CRD it's in the bottom of the AC condenser. Did they change the filters? You should be able to get a feel for whether the tranny cooler is working or not by driving a bit with the AC switch OFF and the vent knob in bi-level (prevents AC compressor from cycling) then by hand check the lines running from the tranny to the tranny cooler. One line should be hot and the other line less hot if fluid is circulating thru the cooler.

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Sorry, my mistake. I am used to the gasser's transmission cooling system built into the engine radiator.
When I checked the fluid at home, it did appear to be a little "dull", but not discolor, nor smelly. I am concern about the issues coming when the transmission had worked through a several miles of low speed, stop and go city drive. I have not taken it to the highway as yet. With 28 F weather should not be an issue for an air cooled radiator for the transmission fluid, but it appears that the constant shifting every three to five blocks did overheat the fluid, and overheted fluid caused the erratic shifting.

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:27 pm 
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I wonder if your trans fluid cooler is plugged? Is there any way you can confirm fluid is flowing through it?


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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:37 pm 
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Low speeds and lots of shifting will definitely overheat the transmission fluid, as will not having enough fluid. The dipstick is too long and reaches too deep into the pan, which means when the stick says "full" you are actually midrange to LOW.

First things first. If the actual trans temp light came on, then you have cooked the fluid and it can no longer be trusted to lube the transmission properly. You may also have plugged filters. Pull the pan, change both filters (plate and spin filters) and fill it back up with 8-9 quarts of ATF+4 synthetic fluid. Plan on a short change for these filters and fluid so you can get all the burned fluid out.

Trust the shifting performance more than the dipstick, if it doesn't seem to be shifting smoothly or holding top gear (kicking down too easily) then try adding more fluid first and see if the problem resolves. You may have already done damage if there is a lot of material stuck to the magnet in the pan. Dark grey magnetic paste is normal, chunks are not.

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:48 am 
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Thanks Geordi, your thinking concur with mine. Some fluid have been already changed at the shop, too cold for me to work at my driveway, but I will add one more quart and see if there is any change in the performance. The transmission was served last March and both filters changed at the time. The shifting issues started last November, but since then I have not done any trips of more than 10 miles except last week. On the long trips on the highways I have not notice any premature down shifting, not even when getting out of the highway into the city traffic.

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:59 am 
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I wish these had an actual transmission temp gauge. I haven't ever seen the light come on with my CRDs, but I know my TDI has had temps over 250 (measured with a Scangauge) and there wasn't any light that lit up. Very poor design choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:10 pm 
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geordi wrote:
I wish these had an actual transmission temp gauge. I haven't ever seen the light come on with my CRDs, but I know my TDI has had temps over 250 (measured with a Scangauge) and there wasn't any light that lit up. Very poor design choice.

A lot of the new cars run pretty hot. My F150 runs at over 200 all day, even coasting 15 miles downhill. It's got a solenoid controlled bypass to the cooler that doesn't even bother to open until then.

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:52 pm 
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geordi wrote:
I wish these had an actual transmission temp gauge. I haven't ever seen the light come on with my CRDs, but I know my TDI has had temps over 250 (measured with a Scangauge) and there wasn't any light that lit up. Very poor design choice.

I totally agree!!!!
You can install a transmission temperature gauge if you desire! I installed one on my Dodge Cummins since I am subject to tow >10k loads at times!
And the temperature gauge probe is NOT in the pan as a lot of people place them; rather it is in the side of the case at the servo test port for more accurate and quicker response indication. (This location was recommended by a very good Mopar transmission technician at the time of install!)

Three of the most important gauges you can have on a diesel in addition to the normal basics ones are:
    1. EGT gauge
    2. Transmission fluid temperature gauge
    3. Boost gauge

If I were routinely towing with a Jeep CRD I certainly would recommend having one installed...
210 is as about as high as you ever want to see transmission fluid temperature; anything higher than that it will start damaging the fluids lubrication ability and turn it a darker color!

The ideal fluid operating temperature is about 175 degrees, as fluid ages and especially if it has been subjected to overheating on occasions, it starts to break down and loses its ability to properly cool the transmission operating components and temperatures can continue to increase with operation till failure of a component occurs.

*Effects of transmission fluid heating:
    175 - 200 degrees, temperature is good
    At 220 degrees, varnish begins to form.
    At 240 degrees, seals start to harden.
    At 260 degrees, you’ll often experience transmission slipping as plates or bands slip.
    At 295 degrees, seals and clutches start to burn and forms carbon deposits in the fluid, at which point transmission failure is imminent.
With every 20 degree drop in fluid temperatures, your transmission’s lifespan can approximately double!
That’s a pretty significant difference, a decrease from 220 degrees to 195 degrees can allow a transmission to an additional 50,000 miles!
*some text from The Transmission Repair Guy

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:26 pm 
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What is interesting about this is that the factory setup of most FWD vehicles allows the transmissions to overheat from basically day 1 of operation.

The VW TDI for one is a perfect example and one which I am well familiar with. Many people call the automatic in the 99-03 "just junk" when it is in fact the cooling design (or lack of) that causes the problem. The "cooler" is a stacked plate heat exchanger that is mounted right on the top of the transmission and has coolant passing through it. Coolant that is maintained at 190 by the thermostat and very close to the engine loop. The transmission cooler is approximately 4" by 7" long and about 3" tall - not very large at all.

In stop-and-go or city traffic, the "cooler" allows the transmission temperatures to routinely hit 230 degrees. This is in addition to the claim by VW and dealerships that the transmission is "sealed" and a "lifetime" fluid, so nobody ever services the thing! Oh yeah - there isn't a dipstick but at least there IS a filter kit readily available. I managed to add a dipstick to mine that was designed for the same transmission but on the Eurovan. I also added a transmission temp gauge (separate from the computer and on the outlet to the cooler, and a LARGE transmission cooler on the front stack. My transmission stays at about 175-180 when running down the highway now even in summer heat and towing. People on the VW forums have insisted that that temp is "too cold" for good fluid lubing... Yet I got over 300k miles from a transmission that most barely get 120k from.

Fast forward to modern vehicles and the 2013 Chevy Equinox my family bought... No transmission temp gauge, no transmission dipstick, no transmission fill tube... NO TRANSMISSION FILTER! :banghead:

"lifetime" is just marketing speak for "longer than our warranty, so we DGAF about you - buy another car" and we are extremely disappointed about that.


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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:44 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Low speeds and lots of shifting will definitely overheat the transmission fluid, as will not having enough fluid. The dipstick is too long and reaches too deep into the pan, which means when the stick says "full" you are actually midrange to LOW.

First things first. If the actual trans temp light came on, then you have cooked the fluid and it can no longer be trusted to lube the transmission properly. You may also have plugged filters. Pull the pan, change both filters (plate and spin filters) and fill it back up with 8-9 quarts of ATF+4 synthetic fluid. Plan on a short change for these filters and fluid so you can get all the burned fluid out.

Trust the shifting performance more than the dipstick, if it doesn't seem to be shifting smoothly or holding top gear (kicking down too easily) then try adding more fluid first and see if the problem resolves. You may have already done damage if there is a lot of material stuck to the magnet in the pan. Dark grey magnetic paste is normal, chunks are not.


You say : The dipstick is too long and reaches too deep into the pan, which means when the stick says "full" you are actually midrange to LOW.

So full can be LOW ....... not all dipstick are the same , do you have any idea what can happen if you overfill an automatic transmission ???

will cause the fluid to foam, leading to erratic gear shifting, oil starvation and transmission damage.

do you understand that when you tell a newbe : " The dipstick is too long and reaches too deep into the pan, which means when the stick says "full" you are actually midrange to LOW. " it can lead to a failure !!!

this is a wrong advise


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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:12 pm 
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Foaming from where exactly? There isn't anything dipping into the fluid on a transmission. It is drawn by suction through the filter into the pump, and sent back through the valve body to do the work it needs to do. A higher level of fluid just covers the valve body deeper.

If there was any kind of foaming, it would be easily evident on the dipstick as bubbles in the fluid, but even then - the action of the pump itself is more than violent enough to cause cavitation in the fluid during normal operation. Same for the flow within the torque converter which is like two fans pointed at each other - the driven fan "blows" the fluid at the other, and that forces the receiving fan to spin. This causes plenty of turbulence within the converter, which is where most of the heat in the transmission is generated.


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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:42 pm 
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PZKW108 wrote:
geordi wrote:
Low speeds and lots of shifting will definitely overheat the transmission fluid, as will not having enough fluid. The dipstick is too long and reaches too deep into the pan, which means when the stick says "full" you are actually midrange to LOW.

First things first. If the actual trans temp light came on, then you have cooked the fluid and it can no longer be trusted to lube the transmission properly. You may also have plugged filters. Pull the pan, change both filters (plate and spin filters) and fill it back up with 8-9 quarts of ATF+4 synthetic fluid. Plan on a short change for these filters and fluid so you can get all the burned fluid out.

Trust the shifting performance more than the dipstick, if it doesn't seem to be shifting smoothly or holding top gear (kicking down too easily) then try adding more fluid first and see if the problem resolves. You may have already done damage if there is a lot of material stuck to the magnet in the pan. Dark grey magnetic paste is normal, chunks are not.


You say : The dipstick is too long and reaches too deep into the pan, which means when the stick says "full" you are actually midrange to LOW.

So full can be LOW ....... not all dipstick are the same , do you have any idea what can happen if you overfill an automatic transmission ???

will cause the fluid to foam, leading to erratic gear shifting, oil starvation and transmission damage.

do you understand that when you tell a newbe : " The dipstick is too long and reaches too deep into the pan, which means when the stick says "full" you are actually midrange to LOW. " it can lead to a failure !!!

this is a wrong advise

Sure, overfilling the transmission can cause foaming but so can overheating.
A over filled automatic transmission will either:
Spit fluid out the breather
Spit fluid out the tail shaft
Spit fluid out the pump seal

The transmission fluid level should be checked while idling in neutral.
And based on my experience as a technician and working with this 545rfe, filling to the full HOT mark plus half a quart is safe. And will help reduce problems with drainback and TC lockup.

Now, if your trasnission is working good without being "overfilled" then good for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:56 pm 
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Now, if your trasnission is working good without being "overfilled" then good for you.

You make me sound like I'm the only one who doesn't "overfill" my transmission :oops:


Last edited by PZKW108 on Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:00 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Foaming from where exactly? There isn't anything dipping into the fluid on a transmission. It is drawn by suction through the filter into the pump, and sent back through the valve body to do the work it needs to do. A higher level of fluid just covers the valve body deeper.

If there was any kind of foaming, it would be easily evident on the dipstick as bubbles in the fluid, but even then - the action of the pump itself is more than violent enough to cause cavitation in the fluid during normal operation. Same for the flow within the torque converter which is like two fans pointed at each other - the driven fan "blows" the fluid at the other, and that forces the receiving fan to spin. This causes plenty of turbulence within the converter, which is where most of the heat in the transmission is generated.


thats the kind of thing I get when I google it :

If the transmission is overfilled, the gears churn the fluid into foam. This aerates the fluid and causing the same conditions occurring with a low level. In either case, air bubbles cause fluid overheating, oxidation and varnish buildup which interferes with valve and clutch operation. Foaming also causes fluid expansion which can result in fluid overflow from the transmission vent or fill tube. Fluid overflow can easily be mistaken for a leak if inspection is not careful.


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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:06 pm 
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PZKW108 wrote:
Now, if your trasnission is working good without being "overfilled" then good for you.

You make me sound like I'm the only one who doesn't "overfill" my transmission :oops:

Or the only one that hasnt had a problem with your 545rfe.
Take your pick.

In either case, no, you are not the only one. But for those who have had some issues, myself included, it does help.

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:39 pm 
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PZKW108 wrote:
The dipstick is too long and reaches too deep into the pan, which means when the stick says "full" you are actually midrange to LOW. " it can lead to a failure !!!
this is a wrong advise

I respectfully disagree partially with your statement!!!!
The 545RFE transmissions in these vehicles are known for having a transmission dip stick that is TOO LONG and hits the bottom of the pan and gives a false level reading!
When I first got my Jeep Liberty CRD, I wondered why the transmission dip stick was always hanging out the top of the tube every time I opened the hood. After researching this issue, I finally found out about the dipstick being too long was the problem, so I cut 1/2" off the end of it and remarked all the levels, problem solved, it never popped out on its own anymore!

I also learned that these transmissions function best when slightly overfilled with AFT+4 so I added an additional quart of fluid and this helped cure some other issues I was experiencing at the time.
I questioned my good friend who owns a transmission repair shop about this issue and he told me they always slightly overfill these transmissions when they rebuild them. He further stated that they are very big transmissions and one extra quart of fluid over normal is not a problem with them like some other transmission....I fully trust his advise as he has been in this business for over 40 years! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:22 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
geordi wrote:
I wish these had an actual transmission temp gauge. I haven't ever seen the light come on with my CRDs, but I know my TDI has had temps over 250 (measured with a Scangauge) and there wasn't any light that lit up. Very poor design choice.

I totally agree!!!!
You can install a transmission temperature gauge if you desire! I installed one on my Dodge Cummins since I am subject to tow >10k loads at times!
And the temperature gauge probe is NOT in the pan as a lot of people place them; rather it is in the side of the case at the servo test port for more accurate and quicker response indication. (This location was recommended by a very good Mopar transmission technician at the time of install!)

Three of the most important gauges you can have on a diesel in addition to the normal basics ones are:
    1. EGT gauge
    2. Transmission fluid temperature gauge
    3. Boost gauge

If I were routinely towing with a Jeep CRD I certainly would recommend having one installed...
210 is as about as high as you ever want to see transmission fluid temperature; anything higher than that it will start damaging the fluids lubrication ability and turn it a darker color!

The ideal fluid operating temperature is about 175 degrees, as fluid ages and especially if it has been subjected to overheating on occasions, it starts to break down and loses its ability to properly cool the transmission operating components and temperatures can continue to increase with operation till failure of a component occurs.

*Effects of transmission fluid heating:
    175 - 200 degrees, temperature is good
    At 220 degrees, varnish begins to form.
    At 240 degrees, seals start to harden.
    At 260 degrees, you’ll often experience transmission slipping as plates or bands slip.
    At 295 degrees, seals and clutches start to burn and forms carbon deposits in the fluid, at which point transmission failure is imminent.
With every 20 degree drop in fluid temperatures, your transmission’s lifespan can approximately double!
That’s a pretty significant difference, a decrease from 220 degrees to 195 degrees can allow a transmission to an additional 50,000 miles!
*some text from The Transmission Repair Guy

:SOMBRERO:

In this thread I installed a simple trans temp gauge
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85807
Basically, the probe is zip tied to the fluid output line to the cooler.
Seems to work pretty good.
Its been fairly cool lately so the highest temp I've seen is about 160F.
That was in slow city driving with TC unlocked.
At higway speeds with TC locked, temp is about 120f.

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:47 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
In this thread I installed a simple trans temp gauge
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85807
Basically, the probe is zip tied to the fluid output line to the cooler.
Seems to work pretty good.
Its been fairly cool lately so the highest temp I've seen is about 160F.
That was in slow city driving with TC unlocked.
At higway speeds with TC locked, temp is about 120f.

flash, I am sure it beats not having anything, but without the temperature probe coming in direct contact with the fluid, I am not real sure how accurate a reading your are getting. You are relying on conductive heat from the metal line into the probe!
I will talk to my transmission shop owner friend this week and seek his advise as to where is the best location to mount a transmission temperature probe on the 545RFE.

After searching the net; looks like the consensus on most of the Dodge forums is to either install a "Tee" block with probe in the oil cooler line going to the oil cooler or install the temperature probe in either test ports 1 or 3 on the right hand side of the transmission...most recommended using port no. 3!
I personally like the latter as cutting a cooler line and adding a "Tee" block just makes for more potential leak locations... :wink:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Transmission Temp Light came on
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:33 pm 
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Geordi, I have this 05CRD for almost 12 years, next February will be the 12th anniversary, and never before the light have come on, I have towed a 2500 pound trailer from St. Luis Mo to Rockville Md over the Appalachian mountains in the summer without a glitch for four years in a row, when my daughter was in the university, thus this is my first encounter with transmission issues. I do agree that transmission temperature gauges, as an oil pressure gauge, should be standard is a truck like this, but my worries are more as to why the fluid is being overheated now and affecting the shifting pattern. Could it be that the transmission cooler is obstructed? I check the outside and there are no visible debris blocking the air flow. I have added about 6 oz of Lucas Transmission Fix, and now the dipstick reads just above the full mark, the fluid is not discolor and I see no sings of foaming.My last few trips have been short and with teh air temperature in the 10 to 15 F I have not experience any issues. I have a trip schedule for July to the golf coast in FL. and I want to be ready for it.

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