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TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
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Author:  Klem531 [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Calling on all experts self proclaimed and otherwise.. :lol: Recently purchased a sweet-albeit neutered- 06 CRD (approx. 4 monthes ago). Just installed the Gen 2 filter head and I am about to purchase a tune from GDE and I'm torn between the ECO and the Full Torque ECO tune. Additionally, would it be worth while for me to purchase a TCM tune as well? A little bit about my situation: My Libby is primarily used as a back and forth to work vehicle.. about 30 miles per day in city/hwy driving. Fuel economy is most important to me however.... I tow a 19ft, 4000lb travel trailer probably 6 times a year taking the family camping. I'm located in NW Indiana and the majority of my towing is flat occasionaly venturing to southern IN,OH and Wis. so no serious hill or mountains. My Libby has the F-37 recall done and the sticker says the torque converter has been replaced. Am I to assume that this is the newer, better euro tc or is there no way to tell for certain? If this is the Euro TC, then is the full torque ECO the way to go ? Also, am I understanding correctly that if the TC is not the Euro TC that the Full Torque tune will shred the standard TC? Now, here is where I'm really confused which direction to go..Like I said, Fuel economy is whats most important to me and from all my research on LJ and on GDE's site it sounds like the best combination for fuel economy is the ECO Tune and the standard TCM tune. :dizzy: Sorry guys guess this was a really long round a bout way of getting to my question...What I would like is the full Torque ECO tune paired with the standard TCM tune not the tow tune. DO I risk damaging the tranny with the Standard TCM tune while pulling my camper? Thank you for your help... Tony :JEEPIN:Image
Author:  arengant [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Klem531 wrote:
What I would like is the full Torque ECO tune paired with the standard TCM tune not the tow tune. DO I risk damaging the tranny with the Standard TCM tune while pulling my camper? Thank you for your help... Tony :JEEPIN: Image


I went from the ECO (not full torque) to hot tune AND TCM (normal) after replacing my stock TC with the EURO TC. If you DON'T have the new TC like the sticker says, and you get the Full Torque tune and TCM tune, your TC will start to go bad, but not over night. I personally would not get the TOW TCM Tune and just turn overdrive off those few times a year you do tow. That will allow you to get the max MPG in your commute and not really hinder any occasional towing.

:2cents:
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
My thoughts:
1. if your TC was replaced as part of the F-37, as the sticker indicates, then you almost certainly have the 2n gen CRD TC (not the 1s gen with the plastic part and not the Euro - Euro IIRC came out after the end of the 06 production cycle and as far as I know was never installed as part of F-37 UNLESS the vehicle owner paid for the Euro part).
2. if your goal is fuel economy you want the EcoTune. The standard TCM tune won't do much for MPG except 1) in town where you can be in a higher gear locked up than the F-37 allows and 2) on the hwy only if you are willing to drive at about 56-58 mph which puts you in 5th locked up and at an optimum speed for mpg (at that speed 35+ mpg is possible). I say the latter because the TCM tune allows you to hold that high gear/lockup at a lower speed than the F-37 but if you drive over about 62mph the TCM tune doesn't do anything for hwy mpg.
3. you won't or shouldn't damage the tranny itself by running the EcoTune and standard TCM tune on the TC you have but pulling that load you will eventually need to upgrade the TC. How soon I cannot say although I can say stoutdog and I drove from Tempe, AZ to Tallahassee, FL on I-10 with a packed to the ceiling rear and middle seat CRD pulling a fully loaded 5X8 Uhaul (ca. 2000-2500lbs) running 60-65mph in fully lockup (e.g. no switching out overdrive) in his 2006 with EcoTune/TCM tune and the 2n gen TC, mentioned above, with no problem.

IMHO get the EcoTune and consider spending the cost of the TCM tune on the Euro TC part, I suspect install would be about $600, or get both tunes and start saving up for a Euro for whenever you need it which might not be soon.

That said I'd strongly recommend that you call the real expert which IMHO would be Keith at GDE who will give you a good honest answer.

Also 1) read the NOOB guide if you have not already done so AND 2) what's the mileage on the vehicle - if at or over 100,000 a new timing belt should be done ASAP and well before spending $s on any tune.
Author:  Klem531 [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
arengant wrote:
Klem531 wrote:
What I would like is the full Torque ECO tune paired with the standard TCM tune not the tow tune. DO I risk damaging the tranny with the Standard TCM tune while pulling my camper? Thank you for your help... Tony :JEEPIN: Image


I went from the ECO (not full torque) to hot tune AND TCM (normal) after replacing my stock TC with the EURO TC. If you DON'T have the new TC like the sticker says, and you get the Full Torque tune and TCM tune, your TC will start to go bad, but not over night.
Quote:
I personally would not get the TOW TCM Tune and just turn overdrive off those few times a year you do tow. That will allow you to get the max MPG in your commute and not really hinder any occasional towing.
:2cents:

Wow!!! thanks for the fast response! Now you mention just shifting out of overdrive when towing...Do you mean just for climbing a steep grade and the reason I ask Is if I shift out of overdrive the tranny downshifts to 3rd and the RPM's skyrocket. I cant imagine towing like this for very long.
Author:  arengant [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Depending on speed. At 70mph I spin about 2k rpm which would be ok on flat ground towing your 4k. But on hills you might have to drop speed and get into third. Of course with the towing tune you would keep 4th lock up instead of 5th for most hills, that's the big difference. And as usual, papaindigo is spot on with the MPG savings only between 45 and 58 mph... I personally rarely see 45 in my city commute so the tcm tune isn't helping my pocket book really, but it does give you slightly overall better driveability. Calling GDE is a great idea!
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Keep in mind on our Tempe to Tally trip that I-10 is the flattest Interstate in the country and our load (CRD and trailer) was in the middle of the vehicle's range. Under those conditions we had little problem holding 60-65 in 5th locked up. There were a few times early in the trip when the vehicle would not hold speed on a steep hill and downshifted to 4th but we soon figured out that was mostly a cruise control issue which could be "cured" by simply adding a bit of throttle before the hill climb started.

Just in passing I'd mention the temp gauge stayed rock steady at a hair left of vertical w/without AC and stoutdog has Kap's tstat mod with a 195f tstat installed and is still running the OEM fan and fan clutch (Hayden and 11 blade to be installed in September). In addition overall trip mpg was 22 hand calculated GPS corrected.
Author:  Klem531 [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Thanks a million for the fast response... you guys are awesome! I have read the noob guide cover to cover several times as well as hundreds of other topics. :BANANA: In fact, the wife made a comment about how much time I spend reading and reaserching about this. Oh well, everyone's gotta have a hobby! My Libby has 92k on her now and Papaindigo I agree that the timing belt etc. is priority 1. I'm hoping to save that project for this winter in my slow time (I work construction). The majority of my driving is at 60mph and below with a fair amount of stop and go driving. I absolutely hate the way the current TCM wont shift into 5th until it reaches 68mph or what ever it is but I grin and bear it..for now. Hence my interest in the GDE TCM tune. Under a hard no-load acceleration, I do get some shudder at about 45-50 mph but as soon as I back off of it, it disappears. When I'm towing, I have never experienced shudder in the tranny.So based on what you guys are telling me, I'm Leaning toward the FT ECO tune and the TCM tune. I like the idea of the shift points being lower and being able to hold 5th gear longer. I plan on upgrading the TC but not till next year after the smoke has cleared from the money I'm about to put out for the GDE tune's and the timing belt/water pump kit. :cry: (Daughter is getting married next year and has really put the squeeze on my wallet, trying to keep all this under the radar of the Ole Ball and chain) :mrgreen:
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
You have a bit of flex on scheduling the TB but I wouldn't go much over 100k. FYI ID parts has a decent price on the parts for a complete TB job but I'd recommend adding a serpentine belt into the mix since you have to pull it off anyway. Also consider a fan shroud mod to make future access easier (if you cannot find that link email me). As to the tunes your idea sounds good, I'd still talk to Keith, since you do plan a TC upgrade in the near future (I did drive, gently, for a month with the Stage II turbo on the stock TC that would massively shudder if I was at all aggressive on the throttle).

On the TB job it's not particularly hard PROVIDED you have the right tools and take your time. Check around there should be folks up your way with tools and the will to help.
Author:  arengant [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Klem531 wrote:
Thanks a million for the fast response... you guys are awesome! I have read the noob guide cover to cover several times as well as hundreds of other topics. :BANANA: In fact, the wife made a comment about how much time I spend reading and reaserching about this. Oh well, everyone's gotta have a hobby


It has become a hobby/obsession that my wife has commented on a few times.... hence the quick responses :)
Author:  Glend [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
I have run the TCM tune and ECO tune for over a year and a half, and I would not recommend the TCM standard tune for anyone towing; the reason is that there is a torque limit on the lock to lock shift feature which means that upshifts drop you into a torque hole which will force you to try and get it to downshift. Also5th is not a towing gear, you just will not have the gearing to pull a load, especially if the road rises even just a little bit.
Author:  arengant [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Glend wrote:
I have run the TCM tune and ECO tune for over a year and a half, and I would not recommend the TCM standard tune for anyone towing; the reason is that there is a torque limit on the lock to lock shift feature which means that upshifts drop you into a torque hole which will force you to try and get it to downshift. Also5th is not a towing gear, you just will not have the gearing to pull a load, especially if the road rises even just a little bit.

Good to know! How often and what do you tow?
Author:  Klem531 [ Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Glend wrote:
I have run the TCM tune and ECO tune for over a year and a half, and I would not recommend the TCM standard tune for anyone towing; the reason is that there is a torque limit on the lock to lock shift feature which means that upshifts drop you into a torque hole which will force you to try and get it to downshift. Also5th is not a towing gear, you just will not have the gearing to pull a load, especially if the road rises even just a little bit.


Hmmm! now that you put it that way, I can see your point...Interestingly enough, I've Been towing my Camper with all the necessary Equipment and 4 some times 5 adults with no issues at all even in 5th gear. I've found that if I tow with Cruise control on the tranny will downshift at the slightest grade but if I'm in control of the throttle it rarely downshifts if I give a little steady acceleration entering a grade. I love this little diesel, it pulls my camper better than my V8 Dakota did.
Author:  Klem531 [ Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
papaindigo wrote:
You have a bit of flex on scheduling the TB but I wouldn't go much over 100k. FYI ID parts has a decent price on the parts for a complete TB job but I'd recommend adding a serpentine belt into the mix since you have to pull it off anyway. Also consider a fan shroud mod to make future access easier (if you cannot find that link email me)..


I have that kit on my wish list at ID parts. :mrgreen: (My wish list is large and...growing) :mrgreen: Seems to me I read somewhere that there is a higher quality water pump available than the one that comes with the kit from ID parts but I cant recall where exactly I saw this. Can anyone confirm or deny this? My plan is to change the timing belt, Water pump etc. as well as upgrade to silicone hoses at the same time. I haven't read about the shroud mod yet, I will research that today, thank you for the suggestion. If there is anyone in the North West Indiana region with tools to loan or rent. Please let me know...I'm in Laporte county near the Southern tip of Lake Michigan, also more affectionatley known as the "Armpit of the nation" LOL. I'm only about 45 min from Chicago so I'm certain somebody round these parts would have the tools for the TB change. There is a guy that lives about 2 miles from me with an 05 CRD that I have stopped and talked to but he doesn't have the tools....yet. He did mention he may purchase them. I have my fingers crossed. :ALONE:
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
ID parts water pump for now is an OEM one. For a while they offered Crown WPs but there were problems and IIRC ID communicated to Crown which has resulted in a bearing upgrade to the Crown WP which is being tested but is not on the ID market at the moment. IMHO the cost difference over the 100-200k life of a WP is not worth going cheap.

Fan shroud mod see my post at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69560&p=743590&hilit=shroud#p743590 and go to the included links.
Author:  joelukex4 [ Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Klem531 wrote:
Glend wrote:
I have run the TCM tune and ECO tune for over a year and a half, and I would not recommend the TCM standard tune for anyone towing; the reason is that there is a torque limit on the lock to lock shift feature which means that upshifts drop you into a torque hole which will force you to try and get it to downshift. Also5th is not a towing gear, you just will not have the gearing to pull a load, especially if the road rises even just a little bit.


Hmmm! now that you put it that way, I can see your point...Interestingly enough, I've Been towing my Camper with all the necessary Equipment and 4 some times 5 adults with no issues at all even in 5th gear. I've found that if I tow with Cruise control on the tranny will downshift at the slightest grade but if I'm in control of the throttle it rarely downshifts if I give a little steady acceleration entering a grade. I love this little diesel, it pulls my camper better than my V8 Dakota did.


I just pulled a 3500# boat down from Wisconsin with cruise and no f37 at 68MPH. Held every hill with no problem against a south wind, didn't downshift at all.
Author:  Klem531 [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Klem531 wrote:
Glend wrote:
I have run the TCM tune and ECO tune for over a year and a half, and I would not recommend the TCM standard tune for anyone towing; the reason is that there is a torque limit on the lock to lock shift feature which means that upshifts drop you into a torque hole which will force you to try and get it to downshift. Also5th is not a towing gear, you just will not have the gearing to pull a load, especially if the road rises even just a little bit.


Hmmm! now that you put it that way, I can see your point...Interestingly enough, I've Been towing my Camper with all the necessary Equipment and 4 some times 5 adults with no issues at all even in 5th gear. I've found that if I tow with Cruise control on the tranny will downshift at the slightest grade but if I'm in control of the throttle it rarely downshifts if I give a little steady acceleration entering a grade. I love this little diesel, it pulls my camper better than my V8 Dakota did.

Quote:
I just pulled a 3500# boat down from Wisconsin with cruise and no f37 at 68MPH. Held every hill with no problem against a south wind, didn't downshift at all.
Just for my clarification, When you say "No F37", do you mean that you do not have the F37 Mod from Jeep?
Author:  Klem531 [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
papaindigo wrote:
ID parts water pump for now is an OEM one. For a while they offered Crown WPs but there were problems and IIRC ID communicated to Crown which has resulted in a bearing upgrade to the Crown WP which is being tested but is not on the ID market at the moment. IMHO the cost difference over the 100-200k life of a WP is not worth going cheap.

Fan shroud mod see my post at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69560&p=743590&hilit=shroud#p743590 and go to the included links.


Great Idea, I'm sold. Thanks again to everyone for their input. :D
Author:  joelukex4 [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Klem531 wrote:
Klem531 wrote:
Glend wrote:
I have run the TCM tune and ECO tune for over a year and a half, and I would not recommend the TCM standard tune for anyone towing; the reason is that there is a torque limit on the lock to lock shift feature which means that upshifts drop you into a torque hole which will force you to try and get it to downshift. Also5th is not a towing gear, you just will not have the gearing to pull a load, especially if the road rises even just a little bit.


Hmmm! now that you put it that way, I can see your point...Interestingly enough, I've Been towing my Camper with all the necessary Equipment and 4 some times 5 adults with no issues at all even in 5th gear. I've found that if I tow with Cruise control on the tranny will downshift at the slightest grade but if I'm in control of the throttle it rarely downshifts if I give a little steady acceleration entering a grade. I love this little diesel, it pulls my camper better than my V8 Dakota did.

Quote:
I just pulled a 3500# boat down from Wisconsin with cruise and no f37 at 68MPH. Held every hill with no problem against a south wind, didn't downshift at all.
Just for my clarification, When you say "No F37", do you mean that you do not have the F37 Mod from Jeep?


I assume no F37 update from jeep. The tranny shifts at 57MPH into 5th lockup. I will say that the previous owner had tranny rebuilt in 12/07 under warranty but not sure if TC was replaced and if so what it was replaced with. I do not get any shutter however.
Author:  Klem531 [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
[/quote]I assume no F37 update from jeep. The tranny shifts at 57MPH into 5th lockup. I will say that the previous owner had tranny rebuilt in 12/07 under warranty but not sure if TC was replaced and if so what it was replaced with. I do not get any shutter however.[/quote]

Got it...Thanks
Author:  Klem531 [ Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TCM tune or not to TCM tune...that is the question.
Glend wrote:
I have run the TCM tune and ECO tune for over a year and a half, and I would not recommend the TCM standard tune for anyone towing; the reason is that there is a torque limit on the lock to lock shift feature which means that upshifts drop you into a torque hole which will force you to try and get it to downshift. Also5th is not a towing gear, you just will not have the gearing to pull a load, especially if the road rises even just a little bit.


Heres just a thought... If I was running the Eco/TCM tunes and wanted to tow, could I just take my CRD out of overdrive until I reached oh say 60 mph then turn OD back on allowing it to shift into 5th. That would get me past that torque hole you mentioned.
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