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What happens when the timing belt breaks?
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Author:  kissfan79 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Hey guys......what exactly happens when the timing belt breaks in the CRD? The reason I ask is that I have had timing belts break on me before but never in an interference engine. I got the call today from my wife today that the "Jeep died". She was very non descriptive as to what happened. I'm trying to find out if it would have made any funny sounds after the belt breaks as it kills the rockers and such. If the belt broke....would it make any strange sounds when cranking after the belt broke? I'm trying to figure out if the belt broke or if it's something else. Basically, from what my wife said, she started it after filling it w/diesel, started to drive away, and it just died and stopped. Once I get more info....I'll let y'all know. Thanks in advance for any help and insight. The funny thing (well not really) is that if it is the timing belt....I had an appointment to have the job done this morning that I had to cancel b/c I'm out of town. I'm worried about it being the timing belt as it has 110,000 miles.

Jim
Author:  ibedonc [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
not good things , just hope it only bent the rockers , and trying to start it only makes it worst
Author:  kissfan79 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Ok....update. The timing belt isn't broken as I got it started but I would be willing to bet that it skipped timing as saying it runs rough would be an understatement. After trying to start it a few times it finally fired up but definately runs rough and has a specific pattern to it's roughness. I tried to pull the jeep a bit further off the road so as not not be a hazard and the first time it coughed, clanked, banged, and generally sounded like death before finally stalling out.
I stared it up again and was able to pull it off the side of the road further but it was not pretty. It seems if you sit there and keep the revs around 2000 rpms....it actually smooths out a bit but as soon as the revs come back to idle it goes back to runnning rough again. I'm going to try and attach a video of it running. I'm not sure if you'll be able to pick up the sound that well but I figured I would try. There are also two pieces to this puzzle. I did notice after getting it started it had a nastydiesel/exhaust smell in the cabin area. Also....I'm not sure if this is just coincidental but yesterday I was making a turn and there was the grandaddy of all holes in the ground and the passenger side of the Jeep slammed into the pavement each time the front and rear wheeels went into it. The Jeep bottomed out both times hard enough to cause my wife's soda to go flying through the air. I mean....we hit hard.....twice. This happened yesterday. Not sure if it is coincidence or a possible cause. I did look under to make sure no oil was leaking or anything. Once again....thanks for any thoughts or info. Here is the video:


Image

Jim
Author:  geordi [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
"just died" is a lot different from "made a bunch of crunchy noises and then died" which is a better description of what the rocker arms breaking would sound like.
Here's hoping there isn't anything wrong with the belt, but let me state something about trying to turn the engine over now, if the belt is already broken:

It won't change anything, might as well give it a shot.

The reality is, if the belt snapped while the engine was running at any speed, the cams would instantly become out of time with each other and with the crankshaft / pistons. Once this happens, the cam will rapidly slow down, but the pistons have more inertia and are still moving. Contact will happen with one of them, and that rocker will break. Whether the rest continue to break depends on where the cams stop. No matter what, the pistons will pound whichever valves they contact, and the designed failure point (the rocker arms) will suffer.

Those cams aren't going to rotate again until a belt is installed on them, SO... If the belt did break, whichever rockers were going to be snapped has already happened. No harm in giving the starter a spin to see how it sounds. If it sounds VERY loose, like there isn't much compression to speak of... Chances are that the belt is toasted. Anything that sounds like metallic chewing - ditto.

That is all the bad news. Now here is the good news: Chances are, either it had a bubble of air and just stalled out and she didn't try cranking it long enough (it can take a while) or your filter chose that moment to plug and the same thing - It wasn't cranked long enough. Good luck.


EDIT: Ok, You posted that video while I was typing - Good, your belt isn't broken. I also don't think that you have a jumped timing, I've heard those and it sounds a LOT different... Think about how a Ford Excursion Powerstroke sounds - loud clattering like dragging chains across a wood table. Yours sounds OK timing wise, it is just struggling to remain running. Air in the fuel or fuel starvation. When was the last time the fuel filter was changed? Either you have a bad filter, or you just got a tank of bad diesel. Either is a good possibility for what has happened so far.

Possible next steps: Change the filter, but before you install it, pour a bunch of "Diesel 911" (PowerService Red Bottle) into the fuel filter, and the rest into the tank. You don't need to go crazy with the jug if they only have the big one, but whatever the measured amount is for a 20 gallon tank, double it. Then start it back up and let it idle for at least 20 minutes. Hopefully it will purge itself out. If it continues to run like crap, the next step is to look at the injectors, but I'm reasonably confident that you just have a fuel issue.

BTW: Yes, as you said in the video - posting online is MUCH more useful than taking it to a dealer... Especially if you want a solution that might work! :-)r
Author:  geordi [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Oh - About the exhaust smell and that hole you hit on the passenger side... Get underneath just behind the passenger front wheel and have a look at the exhaust line. The catalytic converter is just behind the webbed flex pipe section. Is any of that damaged? That could be the source of your exhaust smell, especially if the cat is dented - the platinum mesh could be damaged / crushed, and a freshly-cleaned exhaust system would stink for a while, especially if you ever had low sulfur diesel in the engine.
Author:  kissfan79 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Thanks for the reply Geordi. I'm not sure if you saw my last post....but it did start but runs really really rough and doesn't seem to be driveable. Also.....I'm on a small netbook and am not sure if yall can see the video I put up in my last post or if it is just coming up as a link but I posted a video of it running on the side of the road.

Jim
Author:  kissfan79 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Geordi....
I just saw where you had seen the video I posted. The fuel filter was changed back in January. As I had said when you start it and put it in gear....it sounds HORRIBLE....clanking...banging...and sounding like death. Even with a description like that you'd still bank on a fuel issue? I confirmed with my wife.....she said it was driving fine and just cut off as though the ignition was shut off. I'll check the exhaust pipe. The thing that makes this even more of a pain in the arse is that I am 2 hours away from home with hardle any tools. Luckily I have some family here (we are all in Wilmington for my sister-in-law's wedding).

Thanks again for your help Geordi.

Jim
Author:  kissfan79 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Ok.....next step in the investigation....my wife had just filled up the Jeep with diesel and driven, in her words, about 200-300 yards. If the pump had bad diesel or was the wrong pump (gas)... would the suspect fuel have reached the engine in that amount of distance to cause this kind of havoc? After dinner we are heading back down to the gas station to confirm the fuel from the pump she used and to collect a sample. That being said.....I do doubt she put the wrong fuel in it as she had the CRD before we met and has always been used to putting diesel in it. Stay tuned.......

Jim
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
That sounds like you lost a couple rocker arms and will most likely need to pull the intake manifold to fix. A good 7 hour project or so and the engine will need to be retimed. What type of engine oil are you running?
Author:  kissfan79 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
I used to run Mobil 1 0w40 but switched to Mobil 1 5w40 TDT back in January. I did notice the oil was low when I was giving it the first look over after this happened but there was still some on the dipstick. I did add some to it before starting it to bring it over the min line.

Jim
Author:  geordi [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Ok... I'm down in Savannah at the moment, and I was going to be coming up to Raleigh next weekend... Based on what Keith says, if you need me to, I could come up tomorrow or Friday to help you re-time the engine. I have to be back in Georgia on Friday night, but you are only a few hours away. I haven't done a full pull-the-intake gig before, but depending on how much you can do (you only need basic hand tools / sockets right now as the damage may already be done) then you don't need to worry about the timing pins just yet.

Unfortunately I am working all next week Monday-Friday... But I will help in any way that I can, I think I might be one of the closest members to you at the moment. Dkenny might be closer, I know he lives in the RTP area, don't know if he is in town at the moment tho.
Author:  kissfan79 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Geordi.....Man thats awesome of you. I really appreciate your offer. Unfortunately.....I'm kinda' stuck here in Wilmington until I get the Jeep running or take my sister in law's car back to Raleigh (and still have to get the Jeep back) on Sunday. If I can get the Jeep back to Raleigh and you are coming to Raleigh again in the near future maybe we can get it re-timed and checked out.
However......I think we may have found the problem. we went back to the gas station and my wife did indeed put 11 gallons of ethanol free gasoline in the jeep when it had less than 1/4 tank (probably closer to 1/8th). I cracked the bleeder screw on the fuel filter and, even though it did have a slight green tint, it reaked of gasonline...not diesel. The pump she used (#10) was right next to the diesel pump (#11) so we know she used the ethanol free gas. She drove it right at 1/10th of a mile before it conked out. I didn't think that would be far enough for it to work itself into the system. If that is indeed the sole issue and there aren't any issues with the rockers and such.....will the Jeep survive this without any issues if we can get the gas out and fill it with diesel again?

Jim
Author:  racertracer [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
You may have dodged a bullet.

You will need to drain the tank and get the bad fuel out of the fuel lines and injectors.

Our Diesel engines use an injector pump to pressurize the diesel so it will form a fine mist when pushed through the injectors. These pumps require the lubrication of diesel to continue to work. Excess gasoline will cause failure in the injector pump and damage the injectors.

I read of someone having done the same thing with his TDI and after draining the tank, fuel lines and injectors, and then replenishing with good diesel ... there was no sign of trouble.

Good Luck and if it all works out then get the TB done.
Author:  audiboy86 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
I have had this happen to me before also it took forever but I drained the complete fuel system from the filter back. I had to do it with the pump on top of my filter head because I had no tools at all and managed to do it in the middle of no where. Thank god it cut off before I even left the gas station.
Author:  ATXKJ [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
These things are supposed to have coatings to protect the pieces -
based on the assumption that people will figure out a way to add Gas.....
Author:  kissfan79 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Thanks guys. First thing in the AM we are going to get the Jeep back to the house we are staying at (towed) so we will have a flat surface to work with and we are going to syphon out the gas and get some fresh diesel and power kleen in there. Hopefully no other damage was done and we will have gotten lucky. I'll let ya'll know.

Jim
Author:  kissfan79 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Audiboy.....what did you do with the gas that you syphoned out of your Jeep? Did the gas station have a receptacle they could take it in?


Jim
Author:  geordi [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
Ok... First off - YAY for not borking the timing! FYI: I was coming to Raleigh to do a timing belt, and while my schedule for that other one is tight, I would be happy to discuss doing yours, since you are OVERDUE (shame!) for it on your CRD.

Give your wife a hug, b/c she didn't break your CRD.

Now, the not-so-great news. You won't be able to siphon it from the tank neck, there is an anti-siphon thing at the bottom which will block you. If you are game for a few bucks investment however, hit the local parts shack and get a "Mr Gasket" inline fuel pump. Ideally, you want the one that is about $60, and green for diesel. However, if all they have is the black and red one... Who cares. This is ONLY to suck out the tank. Also get a spool of 20 gauge wire, you will need about 30 feet or so to power the pump. Get about 7-10 feet of 5/16 fuel line and a couple hose clamps. Don't forget a bottle of Diesel 911, or if they don't have that, get 2 bottles (32 ounce size) of Power Service Silver Bottle, and a new fuel filter.

Get under the back and have a look at the lines from the tank. The larger plastic line is the one you want, that is the suction line from the tank. Cut the plastic someplace convenient, bathe in fuel (don't worry, repairing this later is easy, and it is actually a small upgrade too) and shove the fuel line over the plastic tube and clamp it down.

Out from under the CRD (This is why you want a long hose) connect the hose to the inlet side of the fuel pump. Maybe use a small length on the outlet side, you are going to want to put that into 5 gallon cans for a while. run the wire to the battery and let it rip. Yea, this is gonna take a LONG time. But it is the fastest and cheapest way I know of to un-fuel a vehicle like the CRD when you've borked it.

You can actually use the fuel in a gasoline vehicle without any problems, just mix it at about 2.5-gallons-into-15 to get rid of it. Believe it or not, but a lot of the fuel you buy is contaminated by other fuels to a small percentage, 5% or so shouldn't be any problem at all. You might notice a slight drop in mileage, but it will burn OK as a mix. Just not in a diesel! :)

While the tank is draining, pull the filter off, pour it out... Throw it out. It is contaminated, and the percentage is too high in there to expect that you will be able to recover that. Pour the Diesel 911 DIRECTLY into the filter, and put it onto the mount. Don't worry about the fuel line back to the tank - You just drained it by removing the filter with the line cut. It is all over the driveway now. Oops. :)

Once the tank is dry, put the fuel line back together by removing the quick-clip on the side heading to the engine... And cut a small length of that fuel hose to reach the bare metal of the connection - Hose clamp it in place, and you are now ready for fresh DIESEL in to the tank. Add the rest of the Diesel 911 (use the whole bottle) into the tank, OR both bottles FULL STRENGTH if you had to get the Power Service Silver.

Once you have a few gallons of diesel in there, start it up (it should fire fairly quickly) and let it run with that mix for a good 10 minutes to really wash everything out. It should smooth out fairly quickly, but you want to give it a good washing with actual diesel.

All in all, your CRD *should* be OK with this. I had a misfueling on my Jetta years ago, and it was fine too... After I did just about all this, except that I had easy access to the fuel tank TOP from under the seat. Had to throw out that shop-vac after tho. :)
Author:  mikey1273 [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
oh wow I always wondered what would happen if gas got in there. That is not pretty. But you know at some of the newer stations they are putting gas and diesel in the same pump body with a separate handle for diesel usually the diesel has a green or sometimes yellow handle while gas is black. if you are in a rush and not paying attention you could fill with the wrong one. I am always careful not to be distracted when fueling up.

I hope you are able to get you baby going again soon with out much trouble. please post back how it turns out and how you got all that god awful gasoline out.
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What happens when the timing belt breaks?
This happen to me in NJ where we are not allowed to pump our own fuel. The service station insurance had to pay for replacement fuel and filter with labor and towing. Overnight stay a hotel and wages for a missed day of work. That was 70,000 miles ago so I guess it is safe to say no harm done. I hinted at the repair shop to jump the electric lift pump to drain the tank nearly dry to save pulling the tank. I was back on NJTP before it died and I nursed it to the next exit ramp.
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