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AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked it!
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69909		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Big Montana [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked it!
The service rep started the call with "You had about three more cranks on that belt before it broke because the tech broke it while taking the bolts off." The timing was thrown off at that point he said because the tech hadn't even been able to lock in the timing keys. My Jeep is back together and it runs great he says, but when he drives it there is a "ton" of black smoke coming out the back. How bad could this be? I haven't been there yet, but something is obviously wrong if "tons" of black smoke is coming out. I'm thinking injector pump timing or something as simple as the CAC hoses.



I'm pretty nervous.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
Big Montana wrote:
I just heard from the dealer that my Jeep is back together and it runs great, but when he drives it there is a ton of black smoke coming out the back. How bad could this be? I haven't been there yet, but something is obviously wrong if tons of black smoke is coming out.

The service rep started the call with "You had about three more cranks on that belt before it broke because the tech broke it while taking the bolts off." The timing was thrown off at that point he said.

I'm pretty nervous.

Something does not sound right here. I suspect they messed up a lifter or the timing is off. Either way, it did not do this before you took it in, I assume, so they need to make it right. Don't take it back before they fix it! My buddy went through an issue with a local dealer who messed up the belt job 5 (yes FIVE) times before they got it right. They went through at least three sets of rockers, perhaps four, and several shredded timing belts. Plus they sent the head out to be checked and reconditioned. They made good on it, but he did not let it leave there until it was fixed. :2cents:
Author:  Big Montana [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
I'm trying to think of how they will stick me with any blame...

He claimed that the belt broke before he had a chance to put the locking "keys" in place. Shouldn't the keys have been in place before there was ever any fiddling with the belt?
Author:  Big Montana [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
If it's blowing smoke on acceleration, (assuming the turbo hoses are tight) could this be a mistimed injector pump?
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
Rough proper sequence of events:
1. remove fan and fan shroud
2. remove several items in front of timing belt cover
3. remove timing belt cover
3. up to this point you haven't done anything to touch the TB
4. manually rotate engine to proper position to insert cam and flywheel pins - ideally use cam gear locking tool to further lock cams in place even if you don't plan to loosen cam gear nuts. If you do plan to loosen cam gear nuts the gear locking tool or equivalent is critical
5. relax TB tensioner and slide TB off. Move on to other steps.

I don't know what "bolts" they could be taking off that could result in breaking a belt with the possible exception of #4 if they tried to undo the cam bolts without the locking tool in place in which case I suppose they could break some combination of locking pins or belt.

Bottom line I agree with MRausch82. They broke the belt not you, it was in time and not smoking when you took it in, and they have already admitted that whatever they did that broke the belt threw the timing off. IMHO the latter is a big red flag as failure to reset the timing correctly before installing a new belt and running the engine can easily damage rockers/lifters and produce lots of smoke (from the engine in addition to the dealer reps).

Injection pump - I don't know although I do know the pump timing mark only lines up every 3rd revolution or so. Ideally one would manually rotate the engine until that mark lined up also but it's not necessary although you if you don't you do have to witness mark the pump pulley teeth to the case to make sure the new belt goes onto the same teeth the old belt came off of.

My money is still on the general statement that when they did whatever they did to break the belt the timing got off and they failed to reset it correctly when installing the new belt.
Author:  flman [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
Big Montana wrote:
I'm trying to think of how they will stick me with any blame...

He claimed that the belt broke before he had a chance to put the locking "keys" in place. Shouldn't the keys have been in place before there was ever any fiddling with the belt?


Did they show you this ?Broke? belt?
Author:  Big Montana [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
No, I will see the belt tomorrow. I had told them in writing before the work that I want all parts. He told me it was running great other than the smoke. Would there be more noises with smashed rockets and such.
Author:  naturist [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
Hey, throwing black smoke is NOT running great.

THEY broke the timing belt, and it sounds to me like they need to return your Jeep running smoke-free. You owe them the cost of the timing belt job, they owe you fixing it right, and that means no smoke.
Author:  Big Montana [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
Well, I have not seen the Jeep yet, but it sounds like they're making it right. I called before they closed to get an update, and the service agent told me that the air intake hose from the air box tore when they took it off. They have replaced it and all is supposed to be well.

I can't wait to post pictures of a broken belt with 110k miles. If it really did break while taking it off then it sounds like I dodged a bullet. I drove to downtown Detroit in that Jeep for a late night out. I almost took my other car too.

FYI: I'm looking at $2285 out the door for the whole service WITH a trans fluid "drain" (not the full flush) and filter change. He said that he won't charge me for the $50 air box hose.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
Big Montana wrote:
Well, I have not seen the Jeep yet, but it sounds like they're making it right. I called before they closed to get an update, and the service agent told me that the air intake hose from the air box tore when they took it off. They have replaced it and all is supposed to be well.

I can't wait to post pictures of a broken belt with 110k miles. If it really did break while taking it off then it sounds like I dodged a bullet. I drove to downtown Detroit in that Jeep for a late night out. I almost took my other car too.

FYI: I'm looking at $2285 out the door for the whole service WITH a trans fluid "drain" (not the full flush) and filter change. He said that he won't charge me for the $50 air box hose.

WOW! Sounds a little expensive... what did the replace besides the timing belt?
Author:  Big Montana [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
Oh right, sorry. There was a little more.

1. The belt, water pump, two pulleys and tensioner.

2. The Serp belt and tensioner was also replaced.

3. The trans fluid drain and both filter.


I figured it was pricey, but I also wanted the 12 month 12k warranty on those service.
Author:  kissfan79 [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
Hello....
That still sounds really expensive....even with the serpentine belt, pulley, and transmission service. The dealer here in Raleigh quoted me $1600 which included everything....belt, tensioner, idlers, water pump, bypass hose...the whole shebang. I did, however, go the route of buying the parts myself and took them to a local diesel mechanic who did the job for $513 in labor.

Jim
Author:  Big Montana [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
Thanks,

The dealer charged me a crap load for the parts. I could tell that when he quoted me, I'll post the itemized when I get it, but I really wanted it done. I really got tired of reading about it and worrying about the crown parts vs the old batch of filters going around that fall apart and the Amazon belts... I just wanted a bigger fish to get in there. I've done almost all the work on this thing since new, and for this one I just waited so long with worry that I said screw it and get the job done with a guarantee for a year that the job is done right. I'm keeping this car forever, so after checking around for a dealership mechanic that has performed the work before, I settled on them.

If the mechanic broke the belt and still managed to re-time everything before he put it back together then I guess he knew what he was doing. We'll see tomorrow if the smoke was really caused by a torn hose.
Author:  striperman36 [ Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
with the locking bolts and the timing marks for the injection pump, you should be able to re-synch the engine.

I agree that 2285, is alot of money for the 5-6 hour job. Particularly if they had issues they caused and charge you the time to fix it.

I also agree with papadingo, that in the seq of activities to replace the tb, the only step where the belt could break is if they put the locking bolts in and trying to rotate the crankshaft. everything else doesn't touch the tb or the tb is free to rotate.
Author:  jinstall [ Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
ATTENTION!!!!! The Jeep dealer here did the same thing to mine and said it was fine until I took it to United Diesel and had them scope it. IT IS OFF!!!!! Have them fix it or have someone else fix it. This mistake caused me nay months of headache and around $9500 in a new engine. DO NOT DRIVE IT THIS WAY. This is exactly what happened to mine.
Author:  Big Montana [ Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
jinstall wrote:
ATTENTION!!!!! The Jeep dealer here did the same thing to mine and said it was fine until I took it to United Diesel and had them scope it. IT IS OFF!!!!! Have them fix it or have someone else fix it. This mistake caused me nay months of headache and around $9500 in a new engine. DO NOT DRIVE IT THIS WAY. This is exactly what happened to mine.



Thanks jinstall, but the Jeep isn't smoking at this point. I think everything is ok. After I got it back there was only smoke on heavy acceleration like before my GDE tune. I unplugged the MAF, and there is no longer any smoke. It idles smooth and it sounds good. I can't see anything wrong with it at this point.

I'm not getting a check engine light with the MAF unplugged though which is a little strange, and he obviously messed with the wires as they are re-taped.

I have now heard from several that the airbox hose would have had nothing to do with the smoke, but I was never there to see what "smoke" he was talking about. I suspect that the fuel injector pump MAY have been off since the belt broke on him, but either way, he seems to have known how to put it back together. I'm pretty darn happy with the service. I think my cerp tensioner was getting loud too, as one of my strange noises is now gone.

I'm going to see Keith this week at GDE, so perhaps he can tell me if there is anything wrong with it.
Author:  geordi [ Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
DEFINITELY have Keith check the timing on it - It doesn't take too long at all to pull the fan and the timing cover to re-check everything. If your fuel pump is not in time, it can effect your economy too. That pump only rotates around to the timing mark every third rotation. I would also be concerned about that "different" bolt you mentioned in the other thread, and the lack of the heat shield. Something decidedly fishy about this job.
Author:  EAB [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
geordi wrote:
DEFINITELY have Keith check the timing on it - It doesn't take too long at all to pull the fan and the timing cover to re-check everything. If your fuel pump is not in time, it can effect your economy too. That pump only rotates around to the timing mark every third rotation. I would also be concerned about that "different" bolt you mentioned in the other thread, and the lack of the heat shield. Something decidedly fishy about this job.


How can the injection pump timing effect fuel economy?
Author:  Big Montana [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
Only a guess, but could a mistimed fuel injector pump push fuel into the wrong stroke of the piston motion?
Author:  geordi [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AHHH!! The dealer broke my timing belt before he locked
No. We have a common rail system, so the timing of the pump is merely to balance against the pressure drops every time an injector opens and lets fuel / pressure out of the rail. If the pulses of pressure don't match up with the drops... It might make the engine sound like crap, but it can't inject on the wrong cycle. That is entirely the function of the computer telling it to inject fuel.
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