considering a CRD

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:37 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

No idea. When mine was replaced, I saw a line item on the dealers worksheet that show something around 300.00 - no idea if that was their cost or not. But their mechanic also told me that when their Sprinters experience egr failures, its a $900.00 part, largely due to the Mercedes name on it. He told me they had quite a few egr failures on their Sprinters. This fall can't come soon enough for me when ULSD shows up.

Hummm, I just checked yesterday with local head MB Sprinter Tech at the local Dodge dealer and he said they have never seen a non commercial Sprinter in for EGR or any other problems except electronic when after market radios or remote starters were installed, one fire and one no start. The Commercial rigs with UPS and such come in on regular basis for mistreatment type problems. I have actually seen a UPS Sprinter with red dye fuel and a shot fuel pump, one that was towed in that had over 70k miles without fuel filter changed. They had one UPS Sprinter rig towed in and found what was left of a rock in the turbo, it also had a damaged piston. UPS has a shop that does minor stuff like oil changes and they sometime try to fix something and destory an engine.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:42 pm

Last time I talked to the Service Manager at my Jeep dealer I asked about EGR replacement. Said they had replaced 1 EGR (out of 8 sold). Said it was in the first CRD they sold (last Feb). They waited 3 weeks for parts while the customer drove a loaner, still couldn't get a valve. They got tired of waiting and removed, cleaned, and reinstalled the old valve. They still see this customer for regular service, EGR still working fine. He hinted that since they didn't install a replacement part, Jeep wouldn't rememburse for the labor (dealer ate it). Didn't know if they would try that again (without a new valve) as it was labor intensive to repair.

After 6 months and 11,000 miles, I feel like I'm getting this vehicle dialed in. I can say that it has a maintenance schedule that is on the aggressive (and expensive) side and the "I'm constantly screwing with this" factor is an issue. I wouldn't call it poorly designed, poorly built, or a bad vehicle. It is an oddball in the US market and it's quirks are not at all understood by the dealers. I would not be afraid of the CRD, you need to own it with the understanding that it needs a lot of love.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

I wouldn't call it poorly designed, poorly built, or a bad vehicle

I agree. In fact, the engine seems extremely well built, even with features not found on diesel engines in its class size, such as wet sleeves. The egr controls, glow plugs and other ancillary equipment isn't built by the engine manufacture. It's all Bosch on our CRD's. I don't think the egr failures are as big a factor in Europe as they have been here. Out of a group of 8 or 10 of us that bought our CRD's early last year, at least 6 or 7 have had egr's replaced - again, I think it's our dirty fuel at fault. The extra ccv isn't such a big deal to me, it's just something I did to keep oil out of my intercooler and intake. But DCX needs to address it as many prospective buyers won't understand or care about the relative ease of adding an auxillary ccv, nor should they have to. Still, I'd rather DCX cut corners on something easy to address like a ccv, rather than leave off a vgt turbo, or intercooler, or use a diesel engine sized too small for the vehicle. At least an auxilliary ccv isn't a major problem to install. If it was rated like repair jobs on one of those home improvement shows, it would be a 1 hammer job.

valkraider · **Posted:** Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:49 pm

spottyrecordkj wrote:

The transmission shudder is NOT fixed, I am having other transmission related problems and I have NEVER towed with it! Mine doesn't even have a hitch or hooks! The dealers are stupid when it comes to the CRD! I get the feeling they got my money, and that is where it ends! I have called customer service and was treated very poorly, so poorly in fact that I was madder after I called than I was before! I most definately would NOT recommend this vehicle!!! I am also only getting about 20mpg!!!

The transmission shudder is fixed for me. TSB 18-009-06
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Chrysler/1142323200000_1143619200000_18-009-06/91.html
fixed this for me.

I was one of the most vocal complainers about the "shudder" and even created the online petition...
http://www.petitiononline.com/kjcrd/petition.html

This TSB fixes almost every one of my gripes.

For the record, my experience with my 2005 CRD Limited has been very good, even though it seems they are working out some kinks...

toos · **Posted:** Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:52 pm

I did not relaize the timing belt had to be changed (every 90k or so?) Is the diesel interference or non-interference?

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:11 pm

toos wrote:

I did not relaize the timing belt had to be changed (every 90k or so?) Is the diesel interference or non-interference?

I seem to remember it is interference like most OHC engines, I could be wrong.

toos · **Posted:** Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:01 pm

Well, I e-mailed Jeep and asked about the timing belt and if adding a CCV filter would void the warranty on the CRD. The response was as follows:

The timing belt should be changed at 100,000
miles. It is not recommended adding a Provent CCV filter as it may void
the warranty. It is best explained that if the filter causes damage to
the engine or any part of the vehicle it will void the warranty on the
part or parts it caused to fail.

I had also asked about the warranty on the diesel in general, and estimated parts and labor costs for timing belt replacement, but they skipped that part. I sent them another note and will see the response.

Clearly I am seriously interested in the Liberty, the test drive hooked me, but it drives me nuts that I can read through three different, heavily used Liberty Diesel forums on the Internet where the concensus is if you don't add-on a CCV filter you have problems, sooner or later. If you add a CCV filter, the problems apparently are drastically reduced. Keeping contaminants out of components that must remain clean seems like a no-brainer to me, so I assume what I am reading is not the result of a Mann-Hummel propaganda campaign. Yet Jeep will argue with you that adding a CCV filter will void the warranty (yah, I know, Moss act or whatever. It should not require an act of Congress to allow you to remedy a design shortfall, before it becomes a problem, without the comapny who sells you the problem saying it voids the warranty. Apparently 50 cents worth of plastic that sells for $150 retail (yah, I know, I'm exaggerating, but not by much) fixes the problem. I wonder how many posts there were on early Liberty ball joint issues, before someone took notice (or too many front ends started collapsing).

Sorry for the rant, but I hate seeing an American company (well, International consortium with an American workforce and tradition) once again fall behind Japanese service. No one seems to learn....

But.. I still like the Liberty. Although... reading on it seems one needs an OBD II codebook to figure out the problem of th week, if I look through this forum. That's from people who love the CRD it seems, so its not a case of simply the unhappy few voicing their opinion. Its more like hobbyists who like the vehicle for all its warts, tuning what should be a piece of finished engineering. Yet,... it is a "cool" vehicle. Hard to spend that kind of money for a hobby though, at leat for me.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

You'll read the same ccv problems on the VW TDI diesel forums as well. VW doesn't help or warrant add on ccv's either. I've seen pictures of the turbo hoses on a Ford PSD with oil dripping out of the hoses to the intercooler. Strange that when a $25K to $50K vehicle is designed, a $120 (retail price) ccv is deemed too expensive to use. Yet, lots of experience from Fred's TDI site shows that without some kind of additional ccv functionality, clogged intakes and intercoolers will result. CRD owners are now beginning to add to that same experience pool.

So you can install an auxillary ccv, and keep the oil out of your CAC/intake system, and remove it before any dealer service, or not install it and possibly be denied warranty to clean out your intercooler anyway. A lot depends on your servicing dealer.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:59 pm

It just seems strange to me that people think nothing of dropping $400 to $800 or more on performance chips/modules and the like, several hundred on all terrain tires and lift kits, and god knows how much on winches, light bars, rock rails, hitch carriers, cargo organizers, etc, etc, etc - stuff that doesn't affect the operation or reliabilty of this beast one iota, and not blink an eye.

But mention spending $130 for a CCV filter, something that apparently does affect the long term operation and reliability and could prevent quite a few headaches and repair bills down the road, and suddenly everyone's gagging on the cost and screaming about why the factory didn't add it on.

While I do agree that they could and should have designed a better CCV system/filter, IMHO it's pretty d####d stupid to turn your nose up at a vehicle with as many attributes as the CRD has over a one-time aftermarket add-on that costs $130, while at the same time often comtemplating spending 10 times that or more accessorizing the beast to their tastes.

No vehicle is going to be 100% perfect or suit everyone's individual preferences, otherwise there wouldn't be such a thriving aftermarket auto parts industry in this country.

toos · **Posted:** Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:59 am

Yah, I owned a VW Bug years ago with then first fuel injected engine. It used to die whenever I went by a local ATC radar. Strangest thing. So, yes, all these companies have issues I guess. As gfor the $130 part, that would not stop me from buying a CRD. Its the warrant issue that would. I sent a note to Jeep saying it appears they have a problem that is well known, easily fixed, but would void the warranty. I also said if they wanbted to charge $200 for their own add-on, I cheerfully buy a CRD. A few bucks is not the issue unfortunately. Its the view that if you fix a problem, you are in for a fight if anything goes wrong with the engine and you happen to have that part installed. Sooo, I guess if I want one it will be a stealth install. Truly insane...

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:43 am

Sometimes it's almost like there are two things working here that effects the install of a propper CCV. The company bean counters are keeping the price down and assuming that most customers would not fight the warranty repair of a failed EGR from oil or a clogged intake. VW did the same and and when yelled at loud enough they would warranty a one time intake cleaning reguardless of mileage. Then there is times I think the mfg does things like this so company like Mann can sell the provent that will not void your warranty, even though a dealer might think so. VW lost that one in arbitrition and this is what led me to develop the the Old Navy CCV for the VW TDI that sold so well and even had one dealer wanting to buy the set-up for sales to its customers. The guy that was making them didn't want VW dealer to have them because he was afraid they would steal the design and make their own. Here is link to pictures of final product for the VW and it worked great at keeping out the oil and there are about 800 of them out there on VW TDI's. The one thing that some said would cause problem was it replaced the pressure regulating diaphragm but it never did, there was not that much actual air flow and no actual need for the diaphragm on the engine just as here on this engine. However the CCV we are in process of making for the CRD will incorperate the OEM Valve to prevent any possible negative feed back from D/C and will be as easy to install as the Old Navy CCV was on the VW TDI engine.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:53 am

toos:

If you want a CRD, I would confront your dealer directly with the CCV filtration issue along with the response you have from Jeep. I'm not the slightest bit covert about my Provent with my dealer. I confronted the Service Manager prior to the install. He actually recommended a CCV filter if I plan to keep this Jeep for a long time. It helps that this dealer services a lot of diesels and know the issues. Jeep is just still in denial over the problem. The Provent (or any reliable CCV filter) is a cheap fix.

This is a well know problem with diesel CCV systems and there are several companies with aftermarket filter products designed to fix it. Wait until the oily soot sludge starts to build-up and coke the VGT blades and Garrett begins to bounce Jeep's warranty returns of their failed turbos, they will change their toon. This has already happened with the DDA Series 50 motor in mass transit buses. I can tell you that the local Detroit Diesel sales rep walked into the shop when I was working on my install. He knew exactly what I was doing and why, said they do this all the time. It would be very difficult for Jeep to win if sued over a warranty claim denied because of a CCV filter.

If you like the CRD, drive enough miles, or pull enough weight to make a diesel worthwhile, then go for it. There is little to fear about this motor.

considering a CRD

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