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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:39 am 
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Why do people insist on comparing the liberty vs. the wrangler??? This arguement is so boring and senseless. Two completely different vehicles, marketed to completely different people. I own both and the Liberty gets way more miles. The wrangler I bought in 2000. I was not married, had no kids and didn't care about gas milage. Now I'm married,two kids, and watch gas prices daily. Diesel in a wrangler? So it can get 17 mpg instead of 14?? Not worth the extra thousands to me.I also wonder what the total percentage of wranglers sold, are in CA?? Where no new diesels are allowed!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:01 am 
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the big dog wrote:
dc should have learned from ford on the 6.0 that a egr valve has no place on a deisel engine. you cannot i repeat connot run a dirty fuel like#2 deisel thru it and it work properly.


Or Volkswagen, that you CAN run #2 through an EGR with minimal problems. I know people with over a hundred thousand miles with no EGR issues on a TDI Volkswagen. I have 60k on mine with no problems with the EGR.

Not that they are perfect - just that your statement that you cannot run American #2 with an EGR system - is just flat out wrong.

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 Post subject: XJ size, Liberty
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:16 am 
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"work out the bugs,an put it in a cherokee it would out sell every suv on the market.there is plenty enough torgue to handle the bigger vehicle"

That is the funny thing, the Liberty is the bigger vehicle. It weighs over 4,300 pounds. I think the XJ is around 3400 but do not know the exact amount off the top of my head. The Liberty is alot bigger than most people realize-- including me before I bought one. It is the styling that makes it look smaller than it is. You have to see one parked next to a Cherokee to see that it is the same size.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:18 am 
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valkraider wrote:
the big dog wrote:
dc should have learned from ford on the 6.0 that a egr valve has no place on a deisel engine. you cannot i repeat connot run a dirty fuel like#2 deisel thru it and it work properly.


Or Volkswagen, that you CAN run #2 through an EGR with minimal problems. I know people with over a hundred thousand miles with no EGR issues on a TDI Volkswagen. I have 60k on mine with no problems with the EGR.

Not that they are perfect - just that your statement that you cannot run American #2 with an EGR system - is just flat out wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:26 am 
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Not that they are perfect - just that your statement that you cannot run American #2 with an EGR system - is just flat out wrong.[/quote][/quote]

:D yep that why i had to take my excursion thru the same crap that im going thru with my crd ,i guess i shoulda brought it to you for service :? ,if its wrong then you need to tell it to the factory rep that told it to me. yes i have had the vw deisel too, but notice i don't have it now.

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 Post subject: Re: XJ size, Liberty
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:59 am 
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Pablo wrote:
"work out the bugs,an put it in a cherokee it would out sell every suv on the market.there is plenty enough torgue to handle the bigger vehicle"

That is the funny thing, the Liberty is the bigger vehicle. It weighs over 4,300 pounds. I think the XJ is around 3400 but do not know the exact amount off the top of my head. The Liberty is alot bigger than most people realize-- including me before I bought one. It is the styling that makes it look smaller than it is. You have to see one parked next to a Cherokee to see that it is the same size.
Grand Charokee is basically a Libby, just different body and some other minor changes.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:14 pm 
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the big dog wrote:
:D yep that why i had to take my excursion thru the same crap that im going thru with my crd ,i guess i shoulda brought it to you for service :? ,if its wrong then you need to tell it to the factory rep that told it to me. yes i have had the vw deisel too, but notice i don't have it now.


I don't deny the fact that Ford may be having problems.

But It is not because of the EGR System with #2 fuel. It is because of the design of the EGR when used with #2 fuel in America.

There *are* reliable EGR systems. It seems that DC and apparantly based on your experience, Ford - are having problems figuring out the EGR.

Is it perhaps because their EGR is a "bolt-on" addition to their existing diesel offerings - instead of designed from the ground up? I dunno.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:46 pm 
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Grand Charokee is basically a Libby, just different body and some other minor changes(quote)

:wink: i agree with that ,but they arent listed in the same class suv. the liberty is considered mid-size and the cherokee full size, they gave me one to drive while they worked on mine, less head room , narrower seats , closer to the ground. i'll take my liberty 3 to1 over any cherokee. only place its got the liberty is in legroom (length).and the 6 banger rental is lucky to get 18 mpg, not enough torque to pull the hair off your butt.

if i had to drive it indefinitely, i'd be singing give me liberty or give me a refund :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:56 pm 
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But It is not because of the EGR System with #2 fuel. It is because of the design of the EGR when used with #2 fuel in America"

ok,they were not designed to run #2 deisel fuel thru the present egr valve, either way the problem they are having are created by the build up from the fuel deposits(slug).the new deisel that ford is coming with in 07 will not be based on this system, just as the 7.3 was not.o'yea the good thing about a vw deisel is they belong to someone else. they have design flaws all there own.

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2004 dodge 2500 crew cab cummins/ez edge fuel chip/
triple dog/afe airaid/6"chrome stacks/
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:41 am 
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Its interesting to note that in Australia, we are having very few reported cases of EGR failure (none to date that I am aware on, via the ausjeepoffroad forums) - I believe primarily due to the quality of the diesel fuel we have which is Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel produced by BP http://www.bp.com.au. We don't have any Bio-diesel available what so ever here. The ULSD is also a European std I believe - and of course this engine originates from Italy, so it makes sense.

I guess the EGR valve isn't designed to work with the fuel you guys have access to.

We are having the normal problems with balljoints (on 04 models - none reported on an 05 yet), brake rotors, wing mirrors that don't stay in position, Intercooler fouling because of the pro-ventless system design from the factory, and the tranny shudder on the occasional CRD KJ has been reported.

If Jeep have fixed the tranny shudder with the latest TSB, and you fit a provent, then the major issues that would stop a potential new buyer have been resolved for us in Australia it seems.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:12 am 
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Wow!
I've been cruising around at mellow diesel speeds, but today I stomped on the accelerator for the first time. I've never spun the wheels in a vehicle with an automatic transmission before! This truck moves when you tell it to.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:55 am 
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Hee hee hee. These things love being told to Jakemoore. Welcome to the forum and the wonderful world of TORQUE MONSTER!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:58 pm 
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jakemoore wrote:
Wow!
I've been cruising around at mellow diesel speeds, but today I stomped on the accelerator for the first time. I've never spun the wheels in a vehicle with an automatic transmission before! This truck moves when you tell it to.
comparitively speaking....My Lightning did a bit more than barking the tires from 1-2 and 2-3

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 Post subject: I also am considering a CRD
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:22 am 
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My wife's 2004 Toyota Camry suddenly got a mind of its own and went ballistic, taking out my 97 JGC and the garage wall. I have been saving up for a new JGC but I really want a diesel. It seems I will be waiting quite some time if I want the diesel version of the JGC. With my 97 JGC smashed, I am thinking about the Liberty as a replacement. I wonder about the reliability of the VM engine though. Is there anyone out there in Australia or Europe that can tell me how long lived the VM engines are, and what problems one can expect from them if you are like me and tend to keep vehicles until they fall apart (or my wife's car decides to destroy them)?

I test drove a CRD Sport Friday and was amazed at how quiet they are. A compact SUV that can tow 5000# is a real draw for me. I am not too sure about the legroom though (I am 6'3").

I guess what gives me the greatest concern is the reports of tranny shudder (fixed now?) and the bad CCV filters. It seems silly to buy a new Jeep and immediately have to install an add-on intercooler filter to keep it from being filled with oil within a year. The engine compartment is cramped enough as it is, without adding another filter. One of the reasons I bought my Jeep GC with the inline 6 was it had plenty of room to work in the engine compartment. I finally got sick of breaking my fingers off with Ford and GM products.

Is Jeep going to do anything about the CCV filter problem? That might be the deal breaker for me, unless someone out there (outside the US) tells me, the engine is bulletproof and the Provent solves the intercooler-oiling problem, or that Jeep is listening to all the complaints and doing something to fix an obvious design shortfall. A problem that apparently is not too hard to remedy either, although with 10,000 Liberty’s already out, I guess the recall would be costly.

Although I prefer the JGC size, the CRD seems like a do-it-all kind of vehicle; compact, good mileage, great torque/towing capacity, good all-weather/all-road capability. It does appeal to me if Jeep can work out the kinks.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:30 pm 
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The transmission shudder is NOT fixed, I am having other transmission related problems and I have NEVER towed with it! Mine doesn't even have a hitch or hooks! The dealers are stupid when it comes to the CRD! I get the feeling they got my money, and that is where it ends! I have called customer service and was treated very poorly, so poorly in fact that I was madder after I called than I was before! I most definately would NOT recommend this vehicle!!! I am also only getting about 20mpg!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:00 pm 
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Quote:
unless someone out there (outside the US) tells me, the engine is bulletproof and the Provent solves the intercooler-oiling problem, or that Jeep is listening to all the complaints and doing something to fix an obvious design shortfall.


Better look elsewhere, possibly someone will tell you what you want to hear as far as a bulletproof engine, on a Cherokee forum. Their engines are legendary, infallible, and are easy to work on, though the need will never arise. They are also available on most used car lots, inexpensively, and don't need a Provent to keep oil out of the cac. Buy a used Cherokee and with all the money you'll save on a new CRD, you can send Provents for Christmas to all your friends who do own one. :-)

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 Post subject: Looking at CRD
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:37 pm 
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Yes, I suppose you are right. My I6 engine has worked like a charm these last 9 years, never a problem with it. I have been saving in hopes of a diesel SUV and figured I'd have a few more years of good use out of the JGC, then get a replacement and keep the JGC as a "beater car", although it was in great shape (darn, I feel like my best dog died when I look at what's left of it).

For a limited production run vehicle, seems like this forum has a large number of negative posters on their CRD's. More hobby vehicle than transportation. Still, if it was reliable and did not have the problems it apparently does have, it sure is an attractive choice for me at the moment.

Seems like Jeep is missing the boat by pushing Commanders and souped up JGC's with gas prices rising each day. A reliable Liberty CRD and a Diesel JGC would have a ready market I would think. Of course lots of folks remember the old diesel GM cars (I had a used one, a total disaster), and I suppose that is a factor, along with lower diesel fuel quality in the US and EPA regs as well.

I suppose I could look at a Dodge RAM. Out of my price range in diesel though, and I'd prefer a Jeep. Guess I'll hold onto my money and keep watching these forums to see if Jeep works out the problems with the CRD. Still seems like a fundamentally sound vehicle to me, it just needs more work perhaps.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:54 pm 
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I think you may be missing the effect that our tax sponsored, anti-diesel regulations are having on manufactures. DCX or anyone else just can't order proven diesel emissions equipment that meets 07, 09 and 2011 emissions standards, without risk, because they are having to develop it with their suppliers. Then there is the expensive issue of obtaining epa certification on every vehicle, regardless of whether the same diesel engine is used in multiple models. This also slows introduction into the U.S.

Incidentally, now that my CRD has had it's egr and 2 glowplugs replaced, it has not experienced any reliability issues. I did get a tank of poor quality diesel fuel a short while ago that cause some driveline shuddering, but once it was gone, everything was back to normal. No issues.

It seems for now, If you're in the market for a diesel, you either have to be willing to put up with the teething pains and install things like extra ccv's, suffer through some egr failures and so on until we get cleaner fuel. I learned about the Provent last March from reading a VW diesel owners write-up on the oil blow-by issue that many TDI owners are experiencing and installed one in April 2005. But if having to do this kind of preventative DIY project is not something you like doing, diesel technology probably isn't ready for you just yet. In spite of these issues, I prefer diesel power and economy to the point where I am more than willing to deal with it. It was an easy decision for me.

If the epa doesn't legislate all diesel vehicles right out of the US, the technology will probably be ready for you in a few years.

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 Post subject: EGR Cost?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:04 pm 
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Just curious, what does an EGR for the Liberty cost? (parts and labor, or just parts cost)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:12 pm 
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No idea. When mine was replaced, I saw a line item on the dealers worksheet that show something around 300.00 - no idea if that was their cost or not. But their mechanic also told me that when their Sprinters experience egr failures, its a $900.00 part, largely due to the Mercedes name on it. He told me they had quite a few egr failures on their Sprinters. This fall can't come soon enough for me when ULSD shows up.

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