LOST JEEPS
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=72021		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Miyanovich [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Guys and Gals,

I just wanted to post a long over due update that, after a 10 month process, my '06 CRD is back. Alive and well. Running like a top. At a later time I am going to post an in-depth summary of my experience as another version of a newbie guide, for people like myself, who are just average joes who will have to rely on this forum, mechanics and garages, dealers (hopefully not), and parts suppliers to accomplish major fixes. In addition I will post a summation from my service manager. We all learned. And we all took a bath.

In short, the whole experience was awful, and excessive, and expensive. Diligence and good people saved our bacon. We love our Jeep. However, if I would have been told that the process of taking care of this Jeep would have taken what it did, there's no way on earth I would have purchased this vehicle. I researched this forum for 18 months before I bought the Jeep, and got the sense that dealing with problems was going to be challenging but do-able. My experience has shown that dealing with the Jeep CRD can be a lot worse than you can imagine - taking into consideration thousands of good and easy experiences.

I sincerely appreciate all of the help that I have received from this forum. It was life saving. Thank you guys, sincerely. In addition to the great help that I got from Baum Blvd. Automotive, the help that I received got the Jeep running again, and saved us from having to eat the $6000 that we still owe on it.

As a note, there are some people on this forum that I have no interest in hearing from. Particularly the people whose subtext is, "It's your fault for not taking care of it in the first place" and/or "it took so long because your mechanics are morons". There are some folks like that here. Some of them are techs. If you are a new CRD owner on this forum, ignore those people. Listen to the good people.

Here's the basic summary:

In November 2011, Turbo blew pulling a hill. Jeep was limped 1.5 miles to my mom's house, due to having young children in the car. Bolts on flywheel hub backed out under heavy RPM vibration. Bolt holes in flywheel hub were worn into egg shapes. Was towed to garage for diagnostics. During an initial diagnosis, or during my limp home, timing belt jumped 4 teeth and crushed all of the rocker / lifters on the passenger side of the engine. Some injector seals / washers were bad. The turbo return line had a hole in it. In February 2012 I took the Jeep in to my garage - when I had the money to do the fixes. Over the next 6 months: The turbo was replaced. The rocker / lifter sets were replaced. The flexplate / hub / bolts were replaced. I had them replace the TC with a Heavy Duty TC while we had the transmission off. Front transmission seal replaced. Timing belt and tensioner were replaced. Starter motor was replaced due to using starts to get air out of fuel wearing down the old one. All injector seals / washers were replaced. Turbo return line replaced. While we were at it, I got all new tires and had the weak upper control arm replaced on the passenger side. Got the Jeep back in the beginning of September 2012. Had a few hiccups, took it back to the garage for a look over. I have been driving it since. Runs great.

The main factors in it taking so long had to do with my garage only having one diesel mechanic and our initial over-reliance on Chrysler dealers and their lies about parts and availability. Once we were 4 months into it, and once my mechanics realized we were in for a long haul, they had to keep pushing my fixes to the back of their line. I ended up having to get parts myself from GDE, and suppliers in the UK and Poland. Also, we wanted a second opinion, and towed the Jeep to a dealer that had experience with the CRD - 35 miles away. They helped by using the borescope on the valves, which lead to seeing the rocker / lifter problems. But other than that, they were douche bags.

So, it was never my plan to have the Jeep as our only vehicle, but due to the economy, and dwindling savings, we were driving it as our everyday vehicle. Because of what we just went through, we went 9 months as a family renting cars, borrowing cars, and taking public transport. I can't stress enough: if you are new to the CRD and plan on using the vehicle as your only family vehicle, don't. You may have an easy breezy experience like thousands of other owners, or, you might not. To me, it's not worth it.

Just finished uploading GDE's Full Torque Eco-Tune on it, about 10 minutes ago. We're staying with the Jeep for now. We do love it. We'll see what happens.

Thanks again.
:JEEPIN:

~M~
Author:  Big Montana [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Oh boy... I'm glad that you're back. I hope your Jeep keeps running and your experience can help others in the future as we post questions.
Author:  kjjet [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Wow... lots going on for such low miles. Hope all keeps going well. I you have any more probems feel free to contact me. I'M just outside of Pittsburgh.
Author:  Dennis MacGyver [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
So if, you're saying this is all a series of events, what was this initial cause of all this chain of events ? IF it was the turbo, what caused it to fail ? Do you know it'd prior owner history ? Concerns me as I barely have a a few more miles than you. Mine has 1 prior owner, older (60+) so I doubt it was abused in the flats of Florida.
Author:  racertracer [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
I was wondering where you were.
Sorry about your ordeal.
Great post.
What was the final tally?
Author:  Miyanovich [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Thank you all for the well wishes. 8)
Author:  Miyanovich [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
kjjet wrote:
Wow... lots going on for such low miles. Hope all keeps going well. I you have any more probems feel free to contact me. I'M just outside of Pittsburgh.


I will definitely be in touch if I need a POW-WOW.

:JEEPIN:
Author:  Miyanovich [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Dennis MacGyver wrote:
So if, you're saying this is all a series of events, what was this initial cause of all this chain of events ? IF it was the turbo, what caused it to fail ? Do you know it'd prior owner history ? Concerns me as I barely have a a few more miles than you. Mine has 1 prior owner, older (60+) so I doubt it was abused in the flats of Florida.


An essential question. The question for me is, "Who's fault was this?"

The previous owner took meticulous care of the Jeep. However, he did no modifications. When I bought it, it was cherry, and still under warranty, but stock.

I personally drive this Jeep like a p*ssy. Compared to the owners in this group who hot-rod these things and take them out regularly for some Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, I don't even qualify as someone who puts the Jeep through any manly paces. I don't tow either. I just drive it, with a light foot, in the city. I kept up with maintenance, and modified and updated as my schedule permitted. When the turbo went, I had a clean map sensor, and had the SAMCO hoses in house, about to put them on. So, in short, it wasn't modified in any way when the turbo went - other than the updated fuel filter head.

The OEM Turbo hoses weren't split or splayed. It had oil in it. Now, I will say that two months before the turbo died we had our 2nd child. One month before the turbo went my 2002 E350 Powerstroke Box Truck (my work truck) was crippled by a few famous engineering horse-crappers by Ford. So, I was using the Jeep a lot, crazy busy, and wasn't checking the oil level like a Nazi.

So, was it my fault that the Turbo went for not doing all of the modifications and not sleeping inside the engine bay for two months after my daughter was born? Maybe.

My opinion, based on what others have stated, and my experience: this Turbo crap is Chrysler's fault.

The takeaway that I want people to have from my experience is this: Disregard the large percentage of people's experiences on this forum who have had an easy go of it. It's misleading. Put yourself in the category of people who have had their world flipped upside down by the problems associated with the CRD and do everything that you can to do all modifications and have a thorough diagnosis of all systems IMMEDIATELY. Do not think, for one second, that you can wake up every day and just drive this like its a "car". Because, unless you have a thorough status of all systems, and you have a completed list of essential mods, this vehicle is a Casino. Once you have your mods and updates, and a thorough data set on your systems, you can relax.

The question that I asked asked myself for 9 months everyday was, "this is just a f-ing CAR! Should people have to go to these lengths just to have a CAR?" Because, in the end summation, a person needs to be able to, regularly, just wake up, jump in the car, start it, and go. Shut it down a bunch. Turn it on a bunch. Drive it home. Jump out of it, and get in the house. What I've learned is that, mods or not, you can't drive the CRD like this, or you may pay dearly.

So, in short brother, is it possible that you have treated your Jeep well, that the previous owner treated it great, and that you may be driving it one day and your turbo might blow? Absolutely, man!

80% of the fixes that were just done were all related to the turbo blowing out. So, my advice is, don't nap. Check all of your systems, do your mods, and find out if there is a way to check on the health of the turbo - which I have no idea about. Be proactive. Don't wait.

Best,
M
Author:  ATXKJ [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Well M

I love my CRD - but it is easily the most maintenance intensive vehicle I've ever owned.
I've had Toyota's and Nissan's - that I'd change oil on once or twice a year but otherwise never open the hood.

however they weren't nearly as much fun.

it is a trade-off
Author:  Miyanovich [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
racertracer wrote:
I was wondering where you were.
Sorry about your ordeal.
Great post.
What was the final tally?


Racer,

The total costs, with some soft costs included (rentals, bus tickets etc) was $7500. If I calculated in the lost time and efficiency at work, (keeping in mind that my work truck biffed it 3 weeks before the Jeep), and the extra hiring that I had to do to cover the fact that I didn't have a vehicle, the total cost would be over $10,000 easily.

Because some of the delays came from my mechanics, they ate $2500 of the cost.

So, the final hard number was $5000.

:JEEPIN:
Author:  Miyanovich [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
ATXKJ wrote:
Well M

I love my CRD - but it is easily the most maintenance intensive vehicle I've ever owned.
I've had Toyota's and Nissan's - that I'd change oil on once or twice a year but otherwise never open the hood.

however they weren't nearly as much fun.

it is a trade-off


ATKJ,

I agree that the Jeep, when working, is great, and the best / most enjoyable vehicle I've owned.

However, I think there is a huge difference between the energy of more maintenance and dozens and dozens of these things having near catastrophic or catastrophic failures, even with people keeping up with them. That's not a trade off. Nothing is worth that.

My new goal here is to get a bigger warning out in front of the eyes of new or potential owners. Due to the fact that we are moving on in years, and as each year moves by, there's less and less part support from Chrysler, and due to the fact that there is thorough documentation of Chrysler's design flaws, people need to know, in more upfront ways, that this goes beyond just more maintenance.

Regardless of how fun or enjoyable this Jeep is: the parts availability issue, with certain parts, almost puts it in the category of a Delorean. With backorder issues, it took me 4 months to get a part from Poland. And the issue with sudden catastrophic failures of the Turbo, almost puts it in the category of the Ford Pinto. And that's not something that anybody around these parts admits to or outlines. And everyone who hasn't had their life or finances almost ruined by this thing, has the same beer drinking attitude towards it, "clean that MAP sensor, get that elephant hose going, use the right oil, and it's miles and miles of good times".

That vibe is misleading to the entire CRD Population.
Author:  Goglio704 [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Miyanovich wrote:
And everyone who hasn't had their life or finances almost ruined by this thing, has the same beer drinking attitude towards it, "clean that MAP sensor, get that elephant hose going, use the right oil, and it's miles and miles of good times".


Actually, I'm more of a bourbon guy. Sorry for your experience, but what do you hope to accomplish by ranting and calling names here? My Jeep has been a very reliable vehicle for 110,000 miles. My experience is no more or less valid than yours.
Author:  Hexus [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Goglio704 wrote:
Actually, I'm more of a bourbon guy. Sorry for your experience, but what do you hope to accomplish by ranting and calling names here? My Jeep has been a very reliable vehicle for 110,000 miles. My experience is no more or less valid than yours.


I replaced my Glow Plugs/EGR/ECU at 110k, now I'm replacing my Turbo at 114k and I'm panicked as heck about my Timing belt, which is next.

God Bless your luck!
Author:  Goglio704 [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
The timing belt is scheduled maintenance, not a defect.
Author:  Drewd [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Sorry to hear about your issues. Maintenance with previous owner may have been meticulous but what about operation of the vehicle? Did he/she do a 1 minute warmup before driving it off, particularly in cold weather, so to ensure turbo is getting full oil flow before it starts spinning at 200,000+ rpm? Did previous owner do a 1-5 minute cooldown (check owners manual for specifics) on turbo each and every time before engine shutdown? Did previous owner use a turbo diesel engine oil or did they use conventional oil and change it more regularly?

Maintenance is just a portion of what is required to keep our CRDs reliable, proper operation is a must in my opinion and experience. Before I forget, pussyfooting a variable nozzle turbocharger is not recommended either. With fully warmed up engine, step into it occasionally or you'll have issues down the road when the VNT assembly is clogged with soot and can't do its job.

Good luck and I hope you get many more miles out of your CRD.
Author:  Miyanovich [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Goglio704 wrote:
Miyanovich wrote:
And everyone who hasn't had their life or finances almost ruined by this thing, has the same beer drinking attitude towards it, "clean that MAP sensor, get that elephant hose going, use the right oil, and it's miles and miles of good times".


Actually, I'm more of a bourbon guy. Sorry for your experience, but what do you hope to accomplish by ranting and calling names here? My Jeep has been a very reliable vehicle for 110,000 miles. My experience is no more or less valid than yours.


First of all, I'm expressing my experience, which was intense and valid. This is my thread. A rant or emotional expression is valid. If you don't like it, don't read, and dont reply. I'm not getting into it with you here. If you want to get into it, PM me.

I'm not calling anyone names. That beer comment was humor. Like your excellent Bourbon line. And yes, your experience is valid, and well noted, documented and represented. However, my goal is to get more representation of the awful experiences out in front of the eyes of newer owners or prospectives, in a focused, no scattered manor. This isn't a "normal" vehicle. From it's inception it has had problems that place it outside of the realm of "normal". I have noticed a number of shortcomings of communication from this forum. They all contribute to a less accurate and less helpful experience for owners who are either new to the CRD or having problems. The large percentage of the communication here is great - don't get me wrong. But there's an elephant in this living room. And I'm calling it out.

You know what I've seen here, brother? Great people. Giving freely of their time, knowledge, and tools helping out others in need. But do you know what else I've seen? Techs and owners being arrogant. People crapping on Keith at GDE. Arrogant owners, with pretty easy experiences categorizing all struggling owners as people who "obviously deserve it because they didn't do what they were supposed to" (this is their subtext - which in a lot of cases is untrue). And I have seen scores of guys like you, with easy experiences, and this might not be you, but their subtext is, "Whew! Glad it's not me." But what I have not seen is an upfront warning, seriously backed people of knowledge on this forum, that says: "Beware. If you are new to the Jeep CRD, or considering buying it, you could have a great experience, or you could be in for the worst car related experience that you can imagine! etc, etc."

Because based on my experience, and based on 3 years of reading this forum, with 18 months of perusal prior to that, that's what needs to be here. That should be the first thing that people read, before they read Sam's excellent guide. As a matter of fact, I am going to make efforts to pull statements from everyone that I can, who has had major problems, and include in another guide / testament for newcomers. The problem there though? People who usually eat it with the Jeep get out from under it, and never return. Which is another reason why the mean here, in terms of data, favors the people who have had it easy, or who are Car Vulcans and love this sh*t.

Look, it's not LOST Jeeps responsibility to think or do for other people. I get that. But there is an obvious information gap here, created by not having the bottom line up front (BLUF), that's not covered by Sam's excellent NOOB guide. There needs to be an upfront, and serious warning to prospective and new owners - pooled from a lot of people who have been avalanched by it.

"Hey, if you drink a couple of brews and clean that map sensor" and "I love my Jeep" (with a picture of it half upside down in a canyon with 7 foot tall tires) isn't helpful enough in the face of people consistently losing thousands of dollars and time from their lives. If you have an awesome experience with the Jeep, if it runs like a top for you, or if you have it rigged so blue flames shoot out of the mirrors when you're towing your mom's house through "Dead Man's Canyon", that's awesome! But as time goes on here, and Chrysler is less and less and less responsive, this forum will be the most important tool that a person can have. Hell, this forum IS the most important tool already.But I say "Miyanovich's Ugly BLUF Beginner's Warning Guide" is needed. Even if I dont write it.

:JEEPIN:
Author:  racertracer [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
:POPCORN:
Author:  Miyanovich [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Drewd wrote:
Sorry to hear about your issues. Maintenance with previous owner may have been meticulous but what about operation of the vehicle? Did he/she do a 1 minute warmup before driving it off, particularly in cold weather, so to ensure turbo is getting full oil flow before it starts spinning at 200,000+ rpm? Did previous owner do a 1-5 minute cooldown (check owners manual for specifics) on turbo each and every time before engine shutdown? Did previous owner use a turbo diesel engine oil or did they use conventional oil and change it more regularly?

Maintenance is just a portion of what is required to keep our CRDs reliable, proper operation is a must in my opinion and experience. Before I forget, pussyfooting a variable nozzle turbocharger is not recommended either. With fully warmed up engine, step into it occasionally or you'll have issues down the road when the VNT assembly is clogged with soot and can't do its job.

Good luck and I hope you get many more miles out of your CRD.


Drewd,

When I say that I drive it like a p*ssy, or with a light foot, I just mean I don't hammer it, and treat it like I love it. When I get on the highway, i blow it out, fer sure.

Previous owner used synthetic, properly rated oil. And I can't speak for how he drove it. I do know, from our conversations, which actually lasted months after I purchased it, he was generally a meticulous owner with it. To me, it was obvious that he would have known about warming and cooling.

You bring up an important point for me. And here is my question: "If a person gets into an intense period of life, for 4 weeks, and only warms the Jeep for 56.8 seconds. And cools it for 1.1 minutes. Is that grounds for a full Turbo failure that leads to $5000 worth of work?" Because, regardless of what the specs are, that's not a car. That's a joke. And if small derivations in consistency in warming / cooling over a few weeks is grounds for a turbo failure, shouldn't that be highlighted on this forum up front? Or in the manual? In big big letters? As in, "You MUST follow the manufacturers guidelines for warming / cooling or you absolutely will have a turbo failure!" I will bet dollars to donuts that there are people with more miles than me, that drive their Jeeps less efficiently than I, who have had an easy go of it, or who don't pay that much mind to warming / cooling. As a matter of fact, from my experiences on a few forums, there are people who just treat that as a general guideline, and dont pay much mind to it, and their Jeeps haven't had a hiccup.

This is a perfect example of what I am talking about: haziness of information that could prove to be awful for new owners.
Author:  Goglio704 [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Not a problem. The written word often fails to convey meaning. I didn't catch the humor. It read more like a thinly veiled insult.

If you want my statement for the record, here it is:

If you have to ask, don't buy a CRD. If you haven't owned diesels before, don't buy a CRD. If you don't do your own maintenance, don't buy a CRD. If you need or expect your dealer to know how to fix your vehicle, don't buy a CRD. If you expect parts to be on the shelf anywhere in a 200 mile radius, don't buy a CRD. If you need it to be your only vehicle and daily transportation, don't buy a CRD.

In the US, they are rare. Something like 11,000 sold in 05 and 06 combined? I'm guessing 25% of those are gone due to accidents. Finding parts and competent service is an issue and will only get worse...

P.S. Without this forum, my ownership experience could easily have been a nightmare.
Author:  Miyanovich [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My Jeep Lives and Other Stuff
Goglio704 wrote:
Not a problem. The written word often fails to convey meaning. I didn't catch the humor. It read more like a thinly veiled insult.

If you want my statement for the record, here it is:

If you have to ask, don't buy a CRD. If you haven't owned diesels before, don't buy a CRD. If you don't do your own maintenance, don't buy a CRD. If you need or expect your dealer to know how to fix your vehicle, don't buy a CRD. If you expect parts to be on the shelf anywhere in a 200 mile radius, don't buy a CRD. If you need it to be your only vehicle and daily transportation, don't buy a CRD.

In the US, they are rare. Something like 11,000 sold in 05 and 06 combined? I'm guessing 25% of those are gone due to accidents. Finding parts and competent service is an issue and will only get worse...


I like this. This is the starting point, good sir. This is the reality. You are bringing what is real. And I'm merely stating that I looked hard for this information to make an informed decision for my purchase four years ago, and if I found it, it was smattered amongst a haze of other generalized opinions, which were generally "beer drinkey" and "good timey". :)

I would add to this: if you expect Chrysler or their dealers to be on your side, Don't buy a CRD. If you expect Chrysler to be honest with you about parts availability, don't buy a CRD. If you expect all of your parts to be available within the Continental U.S. , don't buy a CRD. If you want to convert a vehicle to run on SVO or WVO, don't buy a CRD. If you believe that "normal maintenance" will ensure you that your OEM Turbo Charger will have a normal life, don't buy a CRD. And finally, as an extension of the "do your own maintenance" point: If your mechanical skills do not put you in the confidence of doing a 3 hour tear down to replace rocker / lifter sets, don't buy a CRD.

:JEEPIN:
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/