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2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
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Author:  CRDME [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
Hello everyone

My 2005 CRD started smoking on the freeway and losing power and rattling/popping under acceleration. I pulled off the freeway and it was popping very loud with major power loss but still running. It would fire up fine and run but would pop very loud. I had it towed to a local diesel shop and they said it was popping back through the intake on cylinder 4. They have all the top end off and all the rockers and such they say seem fine. They say the first 3 cylinders are running smooth and the timing belt looks fine, don't know if they have actually checked the timing though. It has about 115,000 miles on it with original timing belt. They want to pull the head because they think there is something sticking one of the intake valves open on cylinder 4. Does this sound like the next step? They said the valvetrain looks like something on a porsche or space shuttle. Not sure that they are familiar with this engine enough. lol.
Could a glow plug have broken and be lodged in an intake valve?
Any help and knowledge will be greatly appreciated. I have been without her for three weeks and I miss her.
Author:  Hexus [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
Yes, the tip of a glow plug could be stuck in a valve causing it to stay open.

Your timing belt needs replaced right this minute. There are several posts here but you're probably going to have to take the rockers/lifters out and measure them with a micrometer (or some other digitial gauge that goes to .000) before you can be 100% sure that they aren't "crushed."

Credit to MSILBERNAGEL Here:

Extended height of the new lifter 1.368", depressed 1.268" - 0.1" travel


Sir Sam or Geordi definitely know a lot more about this than I, however I can only assume that you have valve damage if something is holding one open while the engine is running.

I can't even begin to fathom what this shop is going to charge you for the work done so far, considering you have to take the whole front end off to get to the timing belt assembly, then remove the head...

Makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it...
Author:  CRDME [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
Thank you for the quick response. This shop, I am thinking, was a mistake. Although I feel like this was going to cost an arm and a leg no matter where I took it.

I will search for a thread on checking the rockers.

Wish I knew more about these things and had more time
Author:  kdlewis1975 [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
You could just have them remove the glow plug to see if it is intact.

I've not had mine torn down this far, but wouldn't they be able to tell if one of the valves are being held open based on the relative position of the other one? ...given that there is a second intake valve.
Good luck.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Author:  CRDME [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
yeah, I told them yesterday to check the glowplug to see if it was broken. The guy told me he didn't know if he could and would have to check with his specialist. Even though I talked to the guy who owns the shop. Somehow even by today they haven't pulled it yet to check it. Not sure why I had to tell them in the first place. I do know that I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS SHOP. At least at this point.

Guy also told me he is going to pull the glowplug now and then shoot air through the hole to try and figure something out. These guys held my jeep hostage for 10 days saying it threw a security code on them and they couldn't get it to start. I have hooked up a friends reader twice as well as had it in a dealership multiple times and never heard of this or had it happen. They "claim" that every Liberty CRD they have worked on has done it to them when they try to hook up their computer with a drained battery. IDK. Felt like I was getting the run around though. This was after they took a week to even look at it after telling me they should be able to figure it out in a couple hours after getting it towed there. I live in a small town with not many shops and so I chose a shop in a bigger town 30 min away. They are supposed to send me oics today sometime as well as pull the plug and shoot the air.

Thanks again to everyone and the fast responses. I am lost, but would be totally lost without this forum.
Author:  ChooChooman74 [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
I just had 2 broken plugs. Unlikely the valve is stuck open. 1) it is a close clearance engine. There are 3 different head gasket thicknesses depending on piston protrusion. Kinda tells you how close they are cutting it. and 2) it is hard to push something when you are sucking in. I would go with a possible broken valve. The 2 broken GPs made a mess in mine, but fortunately, not much damage...mostly superficial.
Author:  Hexus [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
Post your pictures, the people on here will definitely help you out.

I'm getting ready to do a Timing Belt change and 16 Rockers/Lifters (This is minimum I suppose) and I plan on taking several pictures throughout the process and posting it for others to help in the future. I'm a complete noob at this diesel engine stuff but I'm mechanically inclined and sure can't see spending 3-5,000 dollars having someone else do it, nor can I afford it. I've had some fantastic advice from the guys on this forum and hopefully have given some helpful advice myself.

Where in the country are you at?
Author:  kjjet [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
Sounds like it jumped time and the exhaust valves are not opening due to broken rockers and it is firing back thru the intake.

Question is where are you located. There is help out here.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
Hi, Sir Sam here.

What you are describing is the classic example of a timing belt slipping and the sacrificial rockers breaking instead of your valves bending.

You will need 16 new rockers, and perhaps a few lifters, in addition to all the normal TB stuff. The engine will need to be retimed which requires miller special tools, you need to find a shop that has these tools, can make these tools, or can rent or borrow them.

I just wrapped up this same repair for a customer today, and have done it before. If you are in the vicinity of the northern colorado area I charge $350 for the timing belt job, and $350 for the rocker replacement + all parts cost.

New rockers/lifters cost ~$50 on the low end from Jeep. x 16 = $800. You can get sets of rockers only for around $300, and then sometimes find someone like myself to purchase used lifters off of if you need a few, or just buy a couple of new rocker/lifter combos from Jeep USA to fill the gap.


Having the shop pull the #4 glow plug is a waste of money, its extremely difficult to pull and will tell you less than pulling the #4 injector.

A better method to test the engine is to start it up, run up the rpm to about 1100, then do an injector kill test, either use a DRBIII or other scanner and shut down each injector one at a time, or pull the injector connector off while a helper holds the RPM at 1100. When you get to the "backfiring" cylinder with the injector off you will notice that the loud backfiring stops, but the engine still runs rough.

What is happening on all the cylinders, and is apparently worse on #4 for yours, is that the exhaust valves are not opening properly, this means that the exhaust residual is high enough that it fires out the intake, instead of out past the turbo. When you remove the fuel from the cylinder, you don't get the massive backfire.

Listen to these couple of youtube videos, they will sound familiar to you(they are from a CRD with bad rockers/slipped belt).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uMv4zLtBzM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95x7NiozPB0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5v4mJb31sA

Here is a thread showing the damage that occurs:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=62278

The good news is that this isn't the end of the world and can be fixed for the additional parts and labor cost of everything past a timing belt(which needs to be done anyway and is why this happened).

Let me know if you have any other questions or want to take me up on my offer to fix it.
Author:  CRDME [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
Sam,

You are the man! That is exactly what my lil tractor sounded like. I really dont trust this mechanic to do the job correctly. I am in NorCal, near Chico. The mechanic is in Chico. I wish there was a mechanic in NorCal. I checked the list on this forum before I had it towed and the closest recommended mechanic is in Nevada. I thought I might get lucky with this shop that has 25 years experience working on diesels alone. Now I am lost on what to do. So Sam, want to come vacation in NorCal? :D

I will talk to the mechanic tomorrow, most likely go out there and see what is going on. I think he told me he had to pull the camshaft, so idk if it will start the way it is. Maybe my best option is to get it back home and attempt to do the job myself, or rather, with forum help. I dont have a way to tow it long distance. :banghead: .....should have done the timing belt on time...my only option was a dealer or a long haul to an appropriate mechanic, so I kept putting it off until I found someone close I trusted. :furious:
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
I doubt he pulled the cam(s).

If you are mechanically inclined you can do the work, nothing is particularly hard, just lots of time consuming little steps. Generally about 7-8 hours for complete teardown, and 8-9 hours for complete reassembly. You can knock out the job in a weekend with a couple of long greasy days.

Take a look at the timing belt writeup.....it will get you started on the process, to expand on the timing belt procedure from the point of having the rear cover off you need to pull the fuel rail and injectors, remove the FVC(essentially the trottle body), disconnect the EGR tube, unplug the various sensors and plugs on the wiring running over the top of the engine(injectors, camshaft position sensor, water temp MAF, intake temp, then the 4 main plugs by the passenger fender, the one ground by the pass fender, remove the coolant reservoir, there is a plug on the bottom, then you can pull the harness over the engine and drape over the drivers fender. Then there are a bunch of 10mm bolts that hold down the intake/valve cover assembly, remove all of those and then it just pulls up. You will see the broken rockers sitting there, pull out the bad rocker/lifters, drop in the new ones, install the cover alignment pins, drop the cover back on(little bit tricky to make sure you don't knock any rockers off. then bolt it back down.

Then you need to retime the engine. find TDC by sticking a wire or rod into #1 injector hole. find the highest position there and then turn 90* clockwise, this will be 90* aTDC, you can then insert the flywheel pin. You will reinstall the valve cover/intake with the cam locking pins in place. now you just need to put back the few other things like the wire harness and FCV(throttle body), but its basically just a normal timing belt job at that point.

If you do want to attempt to tackle this yourself I can talk you through the procedure on the phone or skype. Skype call would let me show you things on the vehicle, where they are etc.

Here is a video(beta) which gets you started on the timing belt portion of the job, and also explains the retiming procedure.

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o_FJpBEKjk

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjhhxMzzyh8

Part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbi3rRSEdA4

Part 4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_uOjVG1XEs

Part 5:
(having upload problems.....will post link asap.

this is what it looks like once you get the intake manifold/valve cover/cams off:
Image

more bad rockers:
Image


Image


I haven't traveled yet for the service, but I'm open to hearing about it. Perhaps you can find someone else in your area needing the service and split some transportation costs of getting me there.
Author:  CRDME [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
I am headed to the shop after I drop my son off at school. I will be there at about 730am pst. Fingers crossed. Hopefully she is in the condition to have her towed back home so I can do the work myself.

Updates in a matter of hours :pepper:
Author:  CRDME [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
I am thinking of doing the glow plugs and/or injectors at the same time. Along with the timing belt idlers, waterpump, fan clutch. I just had the serpentine replaced and one of it's idlers.

Anything else I should be thinking of replacing while I have her opened up? Is there a list of things I should clean and/or replace due to all the oil from the EGR setup?

How do I tell if my camshafts are OK? How long do the head gaskets last? How about the intercooler?

Thank you in advance :D
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
CRDME wrote:
I am thinking of doing the glow plugs and/or injectors at the same time. Along with the timing belt idlers, waterpump, fan clutch. I just had the serpentine replaced and one of it's idlers.

Anything else I should be thinking of replacing while I have her opened up? Is there a list of things I should clean and/or replace due to all the oil from the EGR setup?

How do I tell if my camshafts are OK? How long do the head gaskets last? How about the intercooler?

Thank you in advance :D


It's a great time to do the glow plugs once the intake is off, its a PITA with it on but with it off very easy.

No need to replace your injectors, they are expensive and easy to pull later if you need to have them rebuilt.

You can clean the intake and fcv pretty good while everything is apart.

They way to tell if your camshafts are ok, which they almost certainly are, is to look at the lobes, typically what you will see is the outer edge is a little marred from hitting the edge of the rocker and not the roller, but its usually very minor. I'd recommend washing down the inside of the cam/valve cover with lighter fluid, and flushing down around the lifter rocker area through to the oil pan with lighter fluid as well, this will flush out any small metal particulates or other fine debris from the rockers being trashed. Then run a sacrificial oil change for the first few days or a week, along with a strong magnet on the drain plug.

Don't worry about the head gasket, if its fine now there's no reason to bother.

The intercooler is not a "wear" item, however we do see small leaks forming in the upper right of the intercooler where the hot intake air comes from the turbo. Throughly clean and then JB weld that corner.

Leak example:
Image
Author:  ChooChooman74 [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
When I get a second I will post what cams are not suppose to look like. Check all your rollers on the rockers. If any are frozen, good chance the cam may be bad.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
ChooChooman74 wrote:
When I get a second I will post what cams are not suppose to look like. Check all your rollers on the rockers. If any are frozen, good chance the cam may be bad.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


Even when they freeze typically there is enough oil that they don't round off or mangle the ends. I'm of the opinion that when the cam ends do get damaged its from rocker that both failed and jumped off to the side.
Author:  CRDME [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
So I am at the shop and the rockers are shot but these guys say it couldn't have jumped timing and run so well on the first three cylinders.... Any ideas?0
Author:  CRDME [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
The mechanic also said he did hook up the jeep to a DRBIII and shut down injector 4 and it got worse... Any ideas?
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
The rockers can also be ruined from high levels of soot in the oil. The needle bearings on the rollers disintegrate. Have a look at the rockers and see if there is any play in the roller bearings.

Have the shop measure the height of each valve to make sure they are the same. This should rule out a bent valve.
Author:  CRDME [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2005 CRD popping back through intake on cylinder 4
Front cylinder rocker bearings are depressed the worst. All bearings have play side to side
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