Design and component longevity issues

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:29 pm

I've heard a lot about how the Liberty CRD is a flawed design. What it really is, is the result of aborted production. There really weren't enough of them made and sold in the US to show the manufacturer where the weak points are in their adaptation to the US market and how best to address them. We can do this, and we should, and here is why I think so.

The facts are that this vehicle, when set up and running properly, is capable of some remarkable performance. Any serious off-road capable vehicle that can run 600+ miles on a tank of fuel at highway speeds is exceptional, and the torque and towing capacity of the CRD are likewise very unusual for a vehicle in this class.

What I thought to do is to compile a list of issues and suggested modifications to the vehicle and/or suggested procedures so that anybody interested in this Jeep has the chance to see what is going on and how to deal with it.

Known to be a frequent issue.................Possible fixes
Engine:
Head gasket failures........................ARP studs, lapping/reinstalling head bolts
Rocker wear......................................bypass filtration, centrifugation, EHM, ORM, high zinc oils
Turbo shaft wear/turbo failure..........Same as rockers, good cool-down, PM checks of shaft play
premature OEM T-stat failure............Inline Tstat, OEM Tstat mods
Ceramic glow plug failure.................5v or 7v metal glow plug install
Changes to oil quality.......................Use oils with 1200-1600 ppm ZDDP
Air leaks in fuel system.....................Replace orig filter head, supplemental fuel pump, in-tank or inline
Water pump failures.........................Use OEM part
Cracked intercooler..........................AL intercooler, JB Weld
systemic failure of IC hoses..............Samco
MAP clogging....................................Regular PM, ORM/EHM, Provent/aftermarket oil CCV separation
Fan clutch premature failure.............Replace with Hayden clutch, run without a fan

Transmission:
Premature failure of OD clutches.....Replace OEM pump valve, shift kit
Poor shifting at startup....................Replace OEM valve, and valve body, use properly made filter
Poor shifting generally......................Shift kits, proper fluids.
Premature TC failure.........................Euro TC, aftermarket TC
4x4 control cable failure...................PM/inspect cable
Ujoint failures...................................PM/scheduled lube
No drain plug....................................Aftermarket

SOftware:
Poor EVIC performance....................???
Inacc, speed/odo sensors............... Reprogram/adjustment possible w/ proper scanner.

OK, list updated as of 1/4/13. Anybody want to add to this?

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:42 pm

Actually Sam has a pretty good start in the Noob guide.

everyone has issues with the EGR and CCV - not very many have problems with Head studs.

Dennis MacGyver · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:51 pm

I've posted this elsewhere but it fits in this thread too.

Well we bought an '06 in July 2012 with 62+K miles on it. It was owned by an older couple who pulled it behind their motor-home. It was well taken care of and VERY clean but......that doesn't make up for the Chrysler-Jeep-Daimler engineering problems encountered.

the Crank Case Vent (CCV) ejects too much oil into the air intake / turbo charger, 2 ozs. per 1000 miles,
the EGR needs replaced every 60K miles OR have the ECM remapped to delete it's function (an EPA no-no),
the MAP get dirty way too fast with oil & suit,
the oil dip stick reads wrong (fill to MAX and it's way over-filled),
the CAC hoses break down from oil vapor from the CCV and needs to be replaced with VERY expensive silicon hoses,
thermostat fails at about 50K miles, replacement costs about $150,
the CAT requires low ZDDP oil (which in-turn causes engine wear),
there are Glow plug removal issues, breakage can require the head to be removed to retrieve pieces,
the fan & fan clutch has issues requiring replacement of both,
the torque converter has problems that required the engine ECU to be remapped (F37) to reduce engine torque and HP,
the torque converter will need replaced because of inherent weakness
the oil pan drain hole is easily stripped by tightening the plug,
the trany pan has no drain plug,
the EVIC unit show milage that is WAY too high of actual,
the front ball joints are non-grease-able,
the upper "A" arm ball joint requires the whole arm to be replaced
the speedometer reads 4 MPH high at 65, (actual 61mph)
all 4 window crank mechanisms will fail leaving you with a window stuck in the down position.

ALL of the "FIXES" required to make this vehicle reliable you're looking at $3000 to $4000 in fixes.
I would NOT let my wife go on a trip in this Jeep without doing the above "Fixes" because any one could bring her trip to a halt.
Dealership knowledge is sorely lacking because the power train was only used 2 years in the USA.
I would never tow with the standard torque converter in place.
OH yea, the AC compressor is always ON when the air flow indicator is turned to the floor/foot mode, robbing mileage.

BUT it does get about 10 MPG more than a comparable sized gas 4x4 SUV, IF......
IF you keep the RPM's under 2000 and cruise in 5th at 1800 RPM's (65 mph ??).
Oh yea, the odometers are notoriously off 3 to 10 % high and low as reported by various owners GPS verification's, (mine reads 3.5% low).

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:54 pm

and don't forget Software.

it's kluged together so that it doesn't work with some code readers and will kick others off after ~ 20 minutes
and if you keep a Scan Gauge plugged in - it will kick you out of overdrive.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:24 pm

ATXKJ wrote:

Actually Sam has a pretty good start in the Noob guide.

everyone has issues with the EGR and CCV - not very many have problems with Head studs.

Actually, I would say that nobody with head studs has a problem with them! :lol:

More to the point, anybody with head studs is not going to have any problems with their head gasket. And those have happened.

And you are absolutely right about Sam's NOOB guide, it has a lot of this, but not all of it, nor is it summarized. The Noob guide is much about 'how to' than 'what is,' and it is a great read with a lot of good information, but it is not short, and it does not cover everything. My thought was that when people read the issues list then 1) they know the whole story; 2) they can decide which issues that they want to address and go to the specific topic of concern.

Probably what I ought to do is to go through the topics of concern and post links to some of the fixes for each known topic, like the ones on bypass filtration and oil centrifugation, for example.

If nobody is interested, then this thread will die a quiet death, but I think a single list of the issues ought to be of interest.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:24 pm

Dennis MacGyver wrote:

the CAT requires low ZDDP oil (which in-turn causes engine wear),
the trany pan has no drain plug,
the EVIC unit show milage that is WAY too high of actual,
the front ball joints are non-grease-able,
the upper "A" arm ball joint requires the whole arm to be replaced
the speedometer reads 4 MPH high at 65, (actual 61mph)

Pretty much all vehicles all have those issues.

I can count on my hand the vehicles that come with a auto trans and a drain plug on one hand these days.No evic(or similar system) is very accurate on any vehicle.You need to get in the 3/4ton+ sized pickups for grease zerks and they are disappearing.Over half of the vehicles produced today require a whole a-arm replacement when the ball joint goes bad,be the lower or upper.Unless it's going to a police department the speedo will not be very accurate,within 5% of actual speed is industry standard,again unless going to police duty then they are calibrated.

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:12 am

Head studs should be seriously considered if you have to open the top to get to the rockers or lifters for any reason.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:12 am

tjkj2002 wrote:

<snip>Unless it's going to a police department the speedo will not be very accurate,within 5% of actual speed is industry standard,again unless going to police duty then they are calibrated.

How is this calibration accomplished? How does one adjust these systems? Is it a software or a hardware adjustment? If software, can one do this with a major league scan tool?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:45 am

racertracer wrote:

Head studs should be seriously considered if you have to open the top to get to the rockers or lifters for any reason.

Well, certainly *I* think so; lots of other dieselheads use them on lots of other engines and there is no reason, apart from the cost, not to do so with the 2.8 CRD.
But I would not discount the use of other techniques other folks (and I) have used, such as bolt lapping, which is tedious and time consuming even with an air ratchet but is a low-cost method of improving TTY bolt performance to prevent HG failure.

As Geordi has pointed out, the head of the bolt itself is the component most likely to fail as a result of the friction between the head and the bolt head, and the bolt body itself will not yield at all.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:07 pm

LMWatBullRun wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

<snip>Unless it's going to a police department the speedo will not be very accurate,within 5% of actual speed is industry standard,again unless going to police duty then they are calibrated.

How is this calibration accomplished? How does one adjust these systems? Is it a software or a hardware adjustment? If software, can one do this with a major league scan tool?

Speedometers report high because they are required NOT to report low so it can't be used as a excuse when stopped for going too fast.
Odometers report low si they can not be accused of short changing on warranties. This happened to Honda on a batch of cars and a class action suit resulted and Honda lost and had to extend warranties.
I would suspect both are speedometers and odometers report very accurate numbers, just not the real ones.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:12 pm

I won't speculate on EVIC accuracy/inaccuracy reasons simply because I don't know how they work but I will note GDE has commented a bit on this topic.

As for speedo and odometer they both can be off independently and in different directions. For what it's worth with stock and stock size replacement tires both insturments on my 05 are nearly dead on (speedo might be off 0.5mph, odometer is within 0.008 low correct with new tires, as off ca. 0.015 low with worn OEM). On the other hand stoutdogs 06 with stock size Michelins has a speedo that reads +3mph and the odometer is off by 0.045 low).

IIRC a dealer can make minor adjustments to both these instruments with a scan tool but how much and how accurate I don't know. Nor do I know how these instruments are driven; back in the olden days they were gear driven and could be accurized for law enforcement or anyone who wanted to pay for the job by playing with the gearing.

PS - the CRD is no better or worse for speedo/odometer accuracy than any other vehicle I've owned since the late 1960's

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:09 pm

papaindigo wrote:

I won't speculate on EVIC accuracy/inaccuracy reasons simply because I don't know how they work but I will note GDE has commented a bit on this topic.

As for speedo and odometer they both can be off independently and in different directions. For what it's worth with stock and stock size replacement tires both insturments on my 05 are nearly dead on (speedo might be off 0.5mph, odometer is within 0.008 low correct with new tires, as off ca. 0.015 low with worn OEM). On the other hand stoutdogs 06 with stock size Michelins has a speedo that reads +3mph and the odometer is off by 0.045 low).

IIRC a dealer can make minor adjustments to both these instruments with a scan tool but how much and how accurate I don't know. Nor do I know how these instruments are driven; back in the olden days they were gear driven and could be accurized for law enforcement or anyone who wanted to pay for the job by playing with the gearing.

PS - the CRD is no better or worse for speedo/odometer accuracy than any other vehicle I've owned since the late 1960's

Pappa.

Have you checked your speedometer with a GPS? Myself and others have found about a 6% error. To obtain 65 mph per 2 different gps units my speedometer needs to read 69 mph.
This has been hashed over many times before you arrived here and is taken for granted :JEEPIN:

I owned a 1999.5 Jetta that my son now has and it was the same untill he got his ecm tuned and one "feature" was the correction of the speedometer. Speedometers now are much different then the mechanical ones of old. They are all electronic and driven by sensors :jester:

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:18 pm

As a new comer here you may not know that the CRD was never a serious product in the North American market :dizzy:

It was simply a 2 year marketing test to see if females would buy/drive a diesel. At that time 80% of the Liberty drivers were female.
Chrysler expected to sell 5,000 of them and ended up selling a tad over 14,000.
So you might say "the operation (the market test) was a success but the patient (the CRD)died :dead:

As has been pointed out the engine does very well with different oil and less EGR :BANANA:

Mine has had different oil since the first change and less EGR since 26k miles :SOMBRERO:

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:43 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

papaindigo wrote:

I won't speculate on EVIC accuracy/inaccuracy reasons simply because I don't know how they work but I will note GDE has commented a bit on this topic.

As for speedo and odometer they both can be off independently and in different directions. For what it's worth with stock and stock size replacement tires both insturments on my 05 are nearly dead on (speedo might be off 0.5mph, odometer is within 0.008 low correct with new tires, as off ca. 0.015 low with worn OEM). On the other hand stoutdogs 06 with stock size Michelins has a speedo that reads +3mph and the odometer is off by 0.045 low).

IIRC a dealer can make minor adjustments to both these instruments with a scan tool but how much and how accurate I don't know. Nor do I know how these instruments are driven; back in the olden days they were gear driven and could be accurized for law enforcement or anyone who wanted to pay for the job by playing with the gearing.

PS - the CRD is no better or worse for speedo/odometer accuracy than any other vehicle I've owned since the late 1960's

Pappa.

Have you checked your speedometer with a GPS? Myself and others have found about a 6% error. To obtain 65 mph per 2 different gps units my speedometer needs to read 69 mph.
This has been hashed over many times before you arrived here and is taken for granted :JEEPIN:

I owned a 1999.5 Jetta that my son now has and it was the same untill he got his ecm tuned and one "feature" was the correction of the speedometer. Speedometers now are much different then the mechanical ones of old. They are all electronic and driven by sensors :jester:

GPS is not very accurate these days either........................

Look at max speed,and yes that is in miles per hour.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:29 am

Yes I've checked my speedo and odometer with GPS on several occasions using different model Garmin units with a minimum acceptable odometer test distance of 50 miles on as flat/straight interstate as possible and I've cross checked the GPS speedo reading using the corrected odometer reading and timed distance runs.

I may be a relative new comer to forum but I purchased my first (hate it when you get rear ended by a dump truck when you stop for a red light and he doesn't) CRD on August 25, 2005 after waiting to trade in my 1996 Dodge F250 Cummins for one of these "test" market vehicles. For what it's worth the speedo/odometer correction factors on my original 05 were quite different from my current 05; for whatever reason the 2n 05 is much closer to correct. Now the EVIC is an entirely different story. For what it's worth stoutdog's speedo correction factor is in line with that 6% figure but mine is not, go figure.

As to longevity issues I don't know that I can really offer much as neither I nor stoutdog (both our current CRDs were purchased used with about 26k miles by PO) have many miles; 47K/52k respectively. That said neither of us have had any significant system failures or CELs during ownership. Both of us have replaced the tstat; stoutdog's started to go and he has kap's rebuild while mine died open and I have a new OEM awaiting a kap rebuild and stoutdog had to replace the airbox to turbo hose. Other than that routine stuff like tires, brakes, batteries plus not so routine upgraded OEM filter head and Steiger window regulators (not a CRD specific issue) plus some preventive items such as Samco hoses, Hayden fan clutch and nylon fan, and I anticipate a timing belt replacement soon based on age for both vehicles plus installing Etenoc1 glow plugs that are on hand. My GDE Stage II turbo and SunCoast TC were a retirement present to myself not "maintenance" or repair; old turbo is solid and on the shelf for a future need by us or someone.

I do find the soot discussion interesting/educational and I'm glad we both got GDE tunes back in 09 at about 30K and have followed an oil/filter change interval of 6k using only diesel rated synthetic; generally Mobil 1 but more recently T6 which should keep the soot level down. I'm sort of watching the related zinc discussion but I not sure I want to go the additive route; not opposed just not sure.

striperman36 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:59 am

only 14K in the USA, how many worldwide?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:06 pm

Interesting question. I've never seen documented even semi-official production numbers and of course it depends on how you count things; of course I've seen lots of posts to the effect that folks recall "hearing" a number. Jeep Liberty production with a diesel engine apparently began with the 2002 model year and ran thru the 2013 model year. Of course the KJ model was 02-07 and the KK from 08-12 and the early KJ was outfitted with the 2.5L engine while the 05-07 KJ had the 2.8L engine and the 08-13 KK had a slightly different 2.8L engine. Obviously there are several ways to count the "bean" so to speak. If one is focusing on the KJ with the 2.8L then I'd love to see valid #s for:
1. total KJ 2.8L production from 05-07 and
2. US market production/sales for 05 and 06. (NOTE - I'm not sure if that market included Canada or not; info is unclear).

For the #2 count IIRC my memory, memory is decent but not precise, is word on the street in 05 was DCJ's "test" market goal for 05 and 06 was to sell about 4,000 give or take in each year in the US market and it's apparently accepted fact that they sold significantly more than that but how many more is not clear. I've seen reports, valid or not, of 10,000 in 05 alone; 14,000 in 05 and 06 total; and 18-20,000 for 05 and 06.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:47 pm

ATXKJ wrote:

everyone has issues with the EGR and CCV - not very many have problems with Head studs.

To add to my earlier response, we have just had two more apparent victims of RHGF, random head gasket failure, just in the last couple of days. The EGR and CCV problems are chronic with the ill effects showing up down the road with turbo and rocker failures, while the HG strikes more or less randomly. And the effects are severe, so it may be rare but is relevant.

And I will reiterate that NOBODY with properly installed studs needs to worry about HG failure, which is a serious PITA.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:52 pm

LMWatBullRun wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

<snip>Unless it's going to a police department the speedo will not be very accurate,within 5% of actual speed is industry standard,again unless going to police duty then they are calibrated.

How is this calibration accomplished? How does one adjust these systems? Is it a software or a hardware adjustment? If software, can one do this with a major league scan tool?

The speedometer and odometer each have a different calibration in revs/mile.

If you change the revs/mile in the BCM you change the way the odometer reads. If you change the revs/mile in the ACM you will change the way the speedo reads.

For a 2005 KJ they can be reprogrammed with a DRBIII. For a 2006 you need a starscan.

IIRC stock revs/mile is 721 for the speedo, and 725 for the odometer.

For anyone in the colorado area I have a DRBIII and can calibrate your speedometer for different size tires, etc

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:42 am

Sir Sam wrote:

LMWatBullRun wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

<snip>Unless it's going to a police department the speedo will not be very accurate,within 5% of actual speed is industry standard,again unless going to police duty then they are calibrated.

How is this calibration accomplished? How does one adjust these systems? Is it a software or a hardware adjustment? If software, can one do this with a major league scan tool?

The speedometer and odometer each have a different calibration in revs/mile.

If you change the revs/mile in the BCM you change the way the odometer reads. If you change the revs/mile in the ACM you will change the way the speedo reads.

For a 2005 KJ they can be reprogrammed with a DRBIII. For a 2006 you need a starscan.

IIRC stock revs/mile is 721 for the speedo, and 725 for the odometer.

For anyone in the colorado area I have a DRBIII and can calibrate your speedometer for different size tires, etc

Now that is worth knowing, Sam, thank you!

Design and component longevity issues

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