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Timing Belt Change
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=73017		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  wvcrd [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Timing Belt Change
This may be a stupid question but it's a matter of finances. My CRD has 125,000 miles on it and I read where I should have changed the timing belt at 100K. I didn't so I need to immediately. My question is if it is necessary to change the rollers and water pump too? The belt is only 90 bucks but a whole timing belt replacement kit with rollers and water pump are over $500. I don't really have the cash for the kit plus labor to change all of that because I also need new tires. Is all of this necessary or just a convenience since the water pump is exposed when changing the belt? How long are water pumps designed to last? Rollers?
I guess I am looking for people to either brow beat me into changing all of it or make me feel comfortable doing it the cheap way and only doing the belt.

Also, if I need to save money to change all of it, should I even drive it in the meantime?

Thanks for your help. I am not a savvy mechanic like some of you so I appreciate the help.
Author:  ChesterCRD [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
There is some debate on the wisdom of not changing the water pump at 100K. I decided not to do mine, though I plan to do it at 200K. I did not replace timing idlers or tensioner for mine at 100K either because they felt fine to me (I did have them onhand though in case). I helped a friend change his over thanksgiving and we replaced both idlers and tensioner for his serpentine because they were bad. His timing belt idlers and tensioner were fine though.
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
X2 on the WP although I'll probably do mine at 100k simply because I have the WP and don't anticipate reaching 100k (I'm retired) until ca. 2022 at my current annual mileage rate so why not.

Idlers and tensioner depend on bearings which can last a long time or die in a short time. If the bearings are solid and there is no leakage of grease from the bearings IMHO you can leave them in place.
Author:  Rich [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
The job is easy if you know how to turn a wrench. I did mine over the summer with 102k on the clock using OEM parts only.

The "kit" being sold on various online retailers includes parts you are not going to need. I followed the how-to here (I think it was Sir-Sam's?) and ended up with half a brand new water pump, and a couple extra gaskets sitting in a box that I will never use. I used a pin kit I bought from an ebay seller in the UK for about $80 shipped.

You don't need to do the water pump at 100k, life span is 200k from what I read and requires you to have a means of holding the cam gears (I made a tool). After pulling my water pump, there was NO play in the shaft, bearings, and the impeller and pulley looked to be brand new. I am under the "well hell, while I'm in there" frame of mind, and it made sense to me as I had the money for the extra parts. You can get by without doing it... and saving yourself some stress the first time you crank the motor when it's done!

When it comes to the timing of the motor itself I DO NOT cheap out on parts. New OEM timing belt, tensioner and idlers only, maybe the high grade (typically blue or red) Gates belts if needed. I don't trust old parts or generics when it comes to a multi-thousand dollar rebuild upon failure. ALWAYS replace the idlers and tensioner when you change the belt!

When you finally get that flippin fan/clutch/shroud out of there, search "Aussie Mod" and mimic it... you will thank yourself when you drop that preverbal bolt down under the steering rack and have to disassemble the front of the motor again to access it... trust me!
Author:  06PeakBagger [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
WVCRD,

Two suggestions - Take a look at Sir Sam's very nice Writeup & Videos: http://colorado4wheel.com/content/KJ_TB.html. Sir Sam's write up includes 3 options for the TB job. Some discussion of the write up can be found http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60858&hilit=timing+belt

Also have you read Noob's Guide?? Very informative...

The following is my opinion and I am not expert but from what I have read there is no designated replacement interval for the water pump, however you want to make sure it is in good order when you do the TB job. For my CRD I looked into ordering the parts from England fromvmdieselspecialist.co.uk in regards to the water pump they said as follows, "[t]here is no specified change interval for the water pump, you need to check the bearing for roughness and wear" however the other items i.e. "tensioner" and "idlers" they strongly recommend changing regardless.


Best,


(VMdieselspecialist.co.uk is a repair shop that also sells parts to us Yanks on the other side of the pond. You have to email\call for prices).
Author:  wvcrd [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
Thanks guys for the input.

I will read the posts suggested. As far as my experience, I can "turn a wrench" but not much experience. And a guy that just helped me with my alternator and belt said that he suggests having a mechanic do the timing belt because "if you are off just one tooth..." yada yada yada. My thoughts are that I've seen a lot of mechanics get sloppy and could mess up too and maybe I would pay a little more attention since its my vehicle.

Any thoughts or is this not an amateurs job?

Thanks again
Author:  Rich [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
wvcrd wrote:
Thanks guys for the input.

I will read the posts suggested. As far as my experience, I can "turn a wrench" but not much experience. And a guy that just helped me with my alternator and belt said that he suggests having a mechanic do the timing belt because "if you are off just one tooth..." yada yada yada. My thoughts are that I've seen a lot of mechanics get sloppy and could mess up too and maybe I would pay a little more attention since its my vehicle.

Any thoughts or is this not an amateurs job?

Thanks again


If you don't throw caution to the wind, how will you ever learn ;)

IF you get the pin kit and pin at #1 TDC, IF you are not changing the water pump, and IF you have the ability to change out a serpentine belt you have what it takes to do the TB change (the water pump takes a bit more confidence). The ONLY thing out of the ordinary is having the confidence and foresight to check, recheck, and check again that ALL four items are at #1 TDC and the belt is properly installed/routed.

I don't remember off the top of my head which of the three methods I used but I applied some knowledge from past vehicles I have done TBs on... and I will pass some of that to you.

At each step, take pictures, especially of the routing of the TB.

Use the proper tools (in this case, I used this kit, which was a bit cheaper this past summer http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHRYSLER-2-5-CR ... 2a150c24d8)

Grab the water pump and give it a few yanks on the pulley, turn it and see if it is smooth/etc. If it feels perfect then you are good to go.... and you can save your pennies to do it down the road.

Take a white paint marker and mark the cam gears at their 12 o'clock position at the bottom of the tooth, your CP3 Pump to the rear cover, and your crank pulley similar. Draw this line over to the belt as well. Count, recount, and recount again the number of teeth between the marks, and be sure that your new belt has that same number between the marks. If you have equal tooth counts between the cams, and between the crank, CP3, and the intake cam. When you tension the belt it WILL quickly show any misalignments in the pulleys. Do your count, and readjust if necessary, you will need to do this, just keep it in mind and be patient.

Once the new belt is in, go have a beer, lunch, watch some TV, or what ever you do to calm your rattled nerves. Then go back and do your counts again for good measure.

BEFORE you put any covers back on, take a DEEP breath, put your key in and start the motor. When the engine starts up, you will know right away if you did it right. If no catastrophic damage is caused and no CEL is thrown, you can start putting things back together. At this point I like to do my counts again just to make darn sure it's done right before buttoning up the nose of the motor.

To date, I have done 3 dozen or so timing belt changes on various motors. To this day I still get a bit nervous for that first crank. I ALWAYS second guess myself, especially when it's a customer's car. That said, to this date I have NEVER done it wrong. Take your time, and check, recheck, and check again after a break to make sure it's all aligned properly. The day after I finished mine I drove 650mi in one day, I started to be more confident after the first hour or so ;)

Good luck and take your time, it is nothing a person with an average knowledge of mechanical bits can't tackle.
Author:  wvcrd [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
Thanks. You have managed to give me confidence and freak me out all at the same time. :shock:
Author:  Sir Sam [ Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
If you cannot swing the $600 for the full kit its still wise to sing the $90 for just the bet. Thats what I did when I was 15k overdue on mine spent the money on the belt and nothing else.

If you are looking to do the belt you have probably already seen my writeup online, but I also did a youtube video series showing the steps on how to do it.

part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o_FJpBEKjk
Author:  wvcrd [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
Thank you Sir Sam. Do you think someone new to engine work should tackle this project?
Author:  dirtmover [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
wvcrd wrote:
Thanks guys for the input.

I will read the posts suggested. As far as my experience, I can "turn a wrench" but not much experience. And a guy that just helped me with my alternator and belt said that he suggests having a mechanic do the timing belt because "if you are off just one tooth..." yada yada yada. My thoughts are that I've seen a lot of mechanics get sloppy and could mess up too and maybe I would pay a little more attention since its my vehicle.

Any thoughts or is this not an amateurs job?

Thanks again


If you've got it properly "locked down" with the pins it's impossible to be off by a tooth. If you've got more time than money and are happy to go back in there at a later date I don't think there is anything wrong with following the service recommendations, belt, idlers and inspect and change the rest as required.
Author:  Drewd [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
I'm of the opinion to do it right the first time.

My TB was changed at 100k and had a new water pump on hand but decided against changing it. It failed 3000 miles later requiring me to go back in to replace it.

My roller bearings were all leaking grease at 100k so I replaced them all.

A set of new tires won't do you much good if you engine timing slips and knocks out your rockers. Used engines on the market are expensive and repairing an engine after a timing belt slips is not something I want to do.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
wvcrd wrote:
Thank you Sir Sam. Do you think someone new to engine work should tackle this project?


If you just change the belt you don't need to monkey around with the cam gear holder and locking pins, just mark the cams and crank correctly, and then follow my procedure in the writeup and videos on getting the crank to IP tooth count right. Just make sure everything is marked before taking it apart, and everything is in the same spot when putting it back together, you need no special tools to do it that way, just be careful to mark it well before taking the belt off.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
Drewd wrote:
I'm of the opinion to do it right the first time.

My TB was changed at 100k and had a new water pump on hand but decided against changing it. It failed 3000 miles later requiring me to go back in to replace it.

My roller bearings were all leaking grease at 100k so I replaced them all.

A set of new tires won't do you much good if you engine timing slips and knocks out your rockers. Used engines on the market are expensive and repairing an engine after a timing belt slips is not something I want to do.

X2..................

I've done hundreds of timing belts from kia's to high end luxury cars and those that have only wanted the belt changed have had issues from 1000 miles to 10,000 miles after the belt was done be it a failed tensioner(very common) or a leaking WP is the the most common.The only ones I could see getting away with only doing the belt is kia's but they have a 40k change interval,should do the pump,pulleys,and tensioner every 2nd belt change.
Author:  cevans [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
Sir Sam wrote:
wvcrd wrote:
Thank you Sir Sam. Do you think someone new to engine work should tackle this project?


If you just change the belt you don't need to monkey around with the cam gear holder and locking pins, just mark the cams and crank correctly, and then follow my procedure in the writeup and videos on getting the crank to IP tooth count right. Just make sure everything is marked before taking it apart, and everything is in the same spot when putting it back together, you need no special tools to do it that way, just be careful to mark it well before taking the belt off.


Using white paint to do this job is also called the "mark and pray" method. I, for one, will not buy a used car where I see paint marks on the sprockets - this is indication that the shop did NOT lock the cam properly and relied on their counting ability. Its especially dangerous since these sprockets are not keyed, if the cam sprocket bolt was ever loosened game over. This is not the proper way to service this motor and I would not recommend this method to anyone, especially since the locking pins are cheap and easy to get - https://millerspecialtools.spx.com/ (under $100 for the locking pins)
Author:  06PeakBagger [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
Cevans,

it would be great if you could import Sealey Diesel Engine Setting/Locking Kit - Chrysler/Jeep 2.5, 2.8CRD - Belt Drive
Code: VSE5056 like that to save us on importation and the such.


http://www.ppcgb.com/Sealey-Diesel-Engine-Setting-Locking-Kit---Chrysler-LDV-25--28CRD---Belt-Drive/prod28124/
Author:  Rich [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
06PeakBagger wrote:
Cevans,

it would be great if you could import Sealey Diesel Engine Setting/Locking Kit - Chrysler/Jeep 2.5, 2.8CRD - Belt Drive
Code: VSE5056 like that to save us on importation and the such.


http://www.ppcgb.com/Sealey-Diesel-Engine-Setting-Locking-Kit---Chrysler-LDV-25--28CRD---Belt-Drive/prod28124/


Read my post above ;)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHRYSLER-2-5-CR ... 2a150c24d8)

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHRYSLER-VOYAGE ... 25769524ca

Just takes a bit of effort to find. I have the blue handled kit, it was just south of $80 shipped when I bought it.


I would take the "mark and pray" method any day over the "f*** it and pray" method of ensuring the CP3 pump is properly timed.

...and if someone wanting to buy a car from me asked to open the timing cover to peer at the gears, I would laugh them out the door.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
cevans wrote:
Using white paint to do this job is also called the "mark and pray" method. <snip> This is not the proper way to service this motor and I would not recommend this method to anyone, especially since the locking pins are cheap and easy to get - https://millerspecialtools.spx.com/ (under $100 for the locking pins)


Sam is right, you can do this without the pins, and people do. It takes careful marking and careful attention to what you do, but it can be done, and I have done it on other vehicles.
If I were to do this on the CRD, I would use a scriber to make my alignment marks with a metal ruler so that the line runs from dead center of the bolt through center of the selected tooth to the edge of TB backer plate. You really do want to be just that precise, as the cam alignment is critical in proper performance and optimal power output.

CEvans is right too, though. This is not the best way to service this motor. The biggest issue I see with this approach is that you don't have any way to positively verify that the crank and the cam are in time after you do your hand rotation checks. If you are willing to spend the time, you can fabricate a set of pins from the appropriate metric bolts, and that is worth consideration. CEvans is right, the only thing holding that cam gear in place is the torque on the bolt, (you will need a torque wrench for that if you do the WP), and it is possible for the cam gear to have drifted oh so slightly or maybe not have been properly installed at the beginning, or maybe the last mechanic was sloppy, but after 100,000 miles the belt will be worn enough for minor misalignment of the cam gears to have crept in.

This is one of several reasons why, with all that said, that while I use a hex key for crank position by getting close with the crankshaft TDC mark and then verifying alignment with the key in the flexplate alignment hole, per the FSM, I will continue to use the cam alignment pins. I could have made them, but right now, time was more precious for me than the money to buy them, and I can verify correct placement after the fact. (The other tool that is handy to have is the tensioner wrench, but already had one that fit from another diesel engine so did not have to buy it. This is easy to make if you have a drill, a chunk of 1" x 1/4" flat stock, a grinder and a torch, but you can improvise with Vice Grips and nails pretty well.)

Bottom line, you will either spend more time without the tools, or more money with the tools and less time. If money is at a premium then spend the time, but you MUST spend the time to be sure you have done it correctly, and you will always be assuming that the previous assembler did it perfectly in the beginning. Maybe so, and maybe not. I'd ask around and see if there is anybody local that has the tools and will lend or rent them. Most members don't do long distance rentals or loans (Me included) but I know Keith at GDE rents his set.

As regards the WP, if it was solid with no perceptible wobble when checked, I'd run it. Any perceptible movement, replace it. With an OEM. You will be doing it soon anyhow. I ALWAYS replace idlers and tensioners when I do timing belts. Always. If you are thrifty and have a friend with a press, you can replace the bearings and recycle the unit

My timing belt had around 90K miles and was visibly cracked when replaced, so I was glad that I parked it till I got the time to do it; Of course, I had a backup and not everybody has that capability.
Author:  geordi [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Timing Belt Change
What you choose to do is your option of course, but I am also available for a reasonable charge when compared against the cost of rockers / possible head damage if it is not done right.

I have the proper pins and locking clamp, but I also mark the cams, crank, and the pump for double-special-secret security. That way I can visually validate that nothing had moved while working the belt on, and after hand rotating. Better very very sure, than wondering.

The "mark and pray" method also doesn't always work to get perfect alignment without the pins, because you are starting off with a stretched belt that --WILL-- be 1/2 a tooth off from proper time. The cams might lock the pins in at the same time, but the crank hole will be 1/2 a tooth past the alignment hole in the housing.

You can possibly do it correctly yourself, but every time you eliminate something that makes the job safer (tools, knowledge, experience ,special pins) the job moves that little bit closer to the ragged edge of disaster. The other side of that cliff will cost you north of $800 and even more downtime.

Is the price or savings worth the risk?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Author:  06PeakBagger [ Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing Belt Change
Rich,

How long did it take to get the kit when you ordered it? Did you have to day duties?
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