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exhaust leaking out rear injector
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Author:  Chamba [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  exhaust leaking out rear injector
Hi all,

I have an issue which which I would love some help. Under acceleration, our 06 crd with 76000 miles was making what sounded like an exhaust leak noise. It started with a total loss of power (where it would idle but could not drive at all under it's own power) which I solved by using the GDE tune box to program back to factory and then programme back to the eco tune.

I could see and smell burnt diesel under the hood when the engine was idling and fuel economy went from 23
Author:  Chamba [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
Mpg to 17 mpg on average. After reading a bit about it here, I bought an EGR and installed it. This has not fixed the problem.

I can now see that it is leaking exhaust from the injector just under the puck and there is black oil residue around the fuel pipe and valve cover at the very rear of the engine

Could this be a bad injector or injector seal? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this or whether anyone has had a similar problem. Thanks in anticipation.
Chamba.
Author:  msilbernagel [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
I'm struggling a little with the description of where the leak is taking place... (sorry)

Can you get us a picture?

I think what throws me is 'under the puck'...

There is a forked injector holder shaped a bit like a chicken foot, which has on one end two fingers which hold down the injector and on the other end a single point that settles on a round bit of steel recessed in the aluminum cover - is that your puck? Apparently, the injector holder/clamp puts enough pressure on the metal there that the aluminum wouldn't hold up, so the puck/button is necessary. A bolt goes through the middle of the injector holder to clamp down the injector.

There are two sealing devices on the injector, an o-ring of a rubber-like compound (maybe 1/3 of the way from the bottom), and a flat copper washer that goes on the very bottom near the tip.

Does that describe the puck you're speaking of?

Mark
Author:  Hoosier CRD [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
I work in the diesel industry and have seen/heard of this situation (or something similar) before. Yes, it does sound like you have compromised sealing of the injector body where it interfaces with the injector "cup" in the head. The question is: Why?

To msilbernagel's point, there is a holddown for each injector that should be intact; if not repair/replace as necessary. Additionally, you need to re-seal the injector body with a new crush washer(1) and o-rings (2). Those should be readily available through a local diesel repair shop or the closest Mopar dealership.

Finally, make certain that the injector cup in the head is clean of any debris prior to re-installing the injector lest you'll have the issue remain. Hope this helps.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
I would bring this to Keith's attention at GDE. He may have some previous experience with what may have led to this. Does the position of the retaining "fork" look any different than the others? Is the assumption that the injector is no longer fully seated down in the bore?

DOC
Author:  Chamba [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
Thank you guys, this is along the lines of what I was thinking. I'm at the ofice this morning, but will have a look at the items you have described when I get home. I will get a picture of it with my phone to post as well.

By 'the puck' I meant the PCV valve on the valve cover which allows oily gasses from the engine to be returned to the intake and be burnt. At first I actually thought that was what was leaking, so I removed my cyclonic filter from the system and hooked it back up straight to the exhaust. I then re-started the engine and saw the same smoke, so I delved deeper.

When I moved the wire harness which covers that rear-most injector, I saw the smoke/oily residue and that is when i was able to follow the smoke to the rear-most injector. It occured to me when I saw this that the o-ring or crush washer (whichever it was) may be to blame for this. You guys have confirmed it, so I think that will be my next tact.

Has anyone ever pulled out one of these injectors before? (I'm sure I can find something through the search engine but would be grateful for any input)
*When removing must one like this and replacing the seal, will it be necessary to replace the seals on all four injectors?
*Any thoughts on what (if anything) I should do to the injector while it is out?
*Is it simply a matter of taking the fuel pipe off and removing the injector and then re-installing the injector with new crush washer and o-ring, or do they need to be 'tuned' when they are re-installed?

On a side note, the EGR was far easier to replace than I thought it would be. It took me 4.5 hours from go to whoa, and that included changing the engine oil as long as I was in the garage and vacuuming out the 5 lbs of nuts, raisins, crackers, dirt and grass which carrying around a 21 month-old son inevitably brings to the interior of a car.... now it looks like I have a spare EGR just in case.

I will email Keith just to see if he has any further thoughts, thanks.

Cheers,

Chamba
Author:  bigfatsi [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
Just do the one that seems to be leaking.

It should be a simple job. Undo the wiring connector. Remove the fuel return clip and keep it out the way. Then undo the bolt that holds what has been descibed as the 'chicken foot' and pull up the injector.

They were seized on mine, but as yours seems to be leaking, then it's unlikely and will probably just a little bit of a gentle twist/tap to remove. Don't remove the cap at the top. If you need to twist it, use a 12mm spanner at the bottom (where the chicken foot went).

Once removed, I would just give it a clean up (except the business end - leave that alone) and refit with a new copper washer.

You'll need to clean inside the hole in the rocker/head to remove all the dirt/soot/debris. Pay particular attention to where the copper washer will sit. You can get fancy recutter tools, but I managed perfectly well with a screwdriver and a twist of rag.

Then carefully refit. The only real no-nos are don't drop anything down the hole - dont touch the tip of the injector if you can help it and don't unscrew the cap on the top of the injector.

I forget the torque settings for reseating them, I just went with TIGHT! lol

HTH

S
Author:  Chamba [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
bigfatsi wrote:
Just do the one that seems to be leaking.

It should be a simple job. Undo the wiring connector. Remove the fuel return clip and keep it out the way. Then undo the bolt that holds what has been descibed as the 'chicken foot' and pull up the injector.

They were seized on mine, but as yours seems to be leaking, then it's unlikely and will probably just a little bit of a gentle twist/tap to remove. Don't remove the cap at the top. If you need to twist it, use a 12mm spanner at the bottom (where the chicken foot went).

Once removed, I would just give it a clean up (except the business end - leave that alone) and refit with a new copper washer.

You'll need to clean inside the hole in the rocker/head to remove all the dirt/soot/debris. Pay particular attention to where the copper washer will sit. You can get fancy recutter tools, but I managed perfectly well with a screwdriver and a twist of rag.

Then carefully refit. The only real no-nos are don't drop anything down the hole - dont touch the tip of the injector if you can help it and don't unscrew the cap on the top of the injector.

I forget the torque settings for reseating them, I just went with TIGHT! lol

HTH

S


Thanks S, sounds like this should be pretty straight-forward. I will go by the Jeep folks today and see if I can get the seals and o-ring. I hope I can get my fuel economy back after this, as 17 has been a bit hard to swallow...

Chamba
Author:  Chamba [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
OK, our Jeep dealer had both the washer and O-ring in stock (Santa Fe has dozens of CRDs running around, so I have been lucky with our dealer having everything I have needed thus far in stock). I only hope the copper washer is the right one, as it is much smaller than I envisioned. it has an ID of about 1/4" with several small tangs. Is this for the joint between the fuel pipe and the injector?

The O-ring looks to be about right with a 1/2" ID. It is made of a lovely pink rubber which will please my wife no-end.

Jeep is quite proud of these little beauties: $12.87 for both; the money I used to buy them weighed mroe than they do. I'll update with the results: I hope to install it tonight after my son is in bed.... thank the gods for heated garages.

Cheers,

Chamba
Author:  bigfatsi [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
Chamba wrote:
I only hope the copper washer is the right one, as it is much smaller than I envisioned. it has an ID of about 1/4" with several small tangs. Is this for the joint between the fuel pipe and the injector?


No the copper washer sits at the bottom of the injector and seals between the injector and the head right down at the bottom of the hole.

The old one could be attached to the injector (have a look at the base of 'the pointy bit' or could still be down in the hole.
Pic should help. Not your injector but you should get the idea.

If it's still down in there, you'll need to get it out. It can't fall into the head but can be a pain. Don't be too agressive as you don't want to damage the seat or the new one won't seal. Try gently screwing something of comparable dimensions to the hole in the washer in. It should grab the washer (NOT the head!) and allow you to remove it. It'll need to be quite long though. Something like a flat head screwdriver which gets wider as you push it it might do. Might be a fiddle, but do-able. Hope this makes sense!

Hopefully it'll be sat on the injector anyway. :wink:

S
Author:  Chamba [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
Thank you for the pic-very helpful. I did not get to it last night as I had a minor tenant emergency and had to fix their fireplace. Hopefully tonight.

Do you guys think I might have done much damage with this leaking for the last 2000 miles?
Author:  papaindigo [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
Probably no damage at least I don't recall anyone mentioning problems after reinstall with new washer and "O" ring. Just fyi the "crows" foot that holds the injector in place apparently depends on a small (dime size or so) steel button the rests in a recess in the aluminum and provides a solid surface for the crows foot. Make sure that button remains in place, it should, as I recall one person doing a bigger job lost a button and the crows foot dug into the aluminum a bit and the injector leaked.
Author:  UFO [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
This happened on my CRD as well. I had two repaired, then another one started leaking, so I had the remaining injector washers replaced as well. No more issue.
Author:  Hoosier CRD [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
I haven't yet extracted injectors from these mongrels myself. BUT, I have talked with another technician who has. IIRC, the rear most injector, #4/the one you are concerned about, can be a bit if a challenge to remove due to upward space limitations. Again, IIRC, when trying to lift the injector out, the top of the injector body will hit the firewall/sound deadening material prior to being fully removed from the bore.

Maybe someone else who has removed these injectors, especially #4, can chime in to verify one way or another.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
The injector pulling special tool has 2 sets of legs. I used the short ones to get the back injector out, which was tightly stuck.
Author:  bigfatsi [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
I had to remove mine to repair a broken cambelt. Had to have them hydraulically removed and rebuilt.

When I replaced them, no.4 was chuffing. Bit of a struggle to remove if getting a tool in, but preumably it shouldn't be seized if it's leaking (fingers x-ed). I removed mine the second time with only the engine cover, fuel feed/return and wiring connector needing to be removed.

HTH

S
Author:  Chamba [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
Still have not gotten to it, but have been promissed Saturday afternoon to myself to get it done. I hope I don't need the tool (because I don't have it), and I agree that given it is leaking it should not be too stuck... I hope. I hadn't thought of the difficulty of the injector hitting the firewall, but I will cross that bridge when I get to it. I'll post pictures and a quick write up when I finally get to it.

I hope this turns out to be like the EGR; everyone says how hard it is, but it turned out to be quick and easy.

Chamba.
Author:  Chamba [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
OK, job done. It seems that I have repaired the leak, and the power has returned to where it was befoer all of this began. I filled the tank after the installation, so we shall see if the economy returns.

It took a bit of jiggling to get the injector out, but it was pretty easily accomplished. I found that gently using a small Snapon pry bar did the trick.

Oddly, there was no o-ring OR crush washer in there that I could find, only a bit of burnt up gasket-maker (I only hope that the PO did not 'fix' any other injectors). I spent about 2 hours cleaning the hole with solvent and bits of rag which I cut into 3" squares. I attached the bits of rag to a flexible grabber with the grasping hooks at the bottom. I could not see directly into the hole, so I used my phone to take photos of the hole (see attached) as I went along to ensure that I got the seats as clean as possible.

There was some minor pitting on the o-ring seat on the injector, so I cleaned that up with a bit of emmory cloth and then installed the o-ring and crush washer. The washer fits very snuggly and is made of a lovely soft copper, so it is apparent why it must be replaced each time. I then put a thin coat of motor oil on the o-ring to ease installation and gently worked it back into place. It was a bit tricky to get the chickenfoot back into place, but I found that taping it loosely to the injector before installing it (and then removing the tape once installed) worked well. To get the bolt in, I used a socket with a maget in it. Mind you, if it were any other injector (1-3), this would have been moot.

The popping noise is now gone, there does not appear to be any more exhaust leaking out the injector, and I am optimistic that it will hold up (touch wood). I will update if anything untoward happens.

While in the garage, I flushed the power steering fluid and replaced it with Amsoil Synthetic ATF and flushed the brakes. I also drained my BMW cyclonic filter and removed about 1/2 oz of oil.

I must say that after replacing the EGR and injector, I am more impressed than ever with this engine. While by no means as easy to work on as my Land Cruiser, it is remarkably easy to get to most things on the engine with a bit of creative thinking. I stand by my original thought, however, that this is a great engine wrapped in a Jeep.

I hope this helps anyone with a similar issue.

Cheers,

Chamba.[img][album][/album][/img]
Author:  Chamba [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
Hmm, it seems I cannot post pics. Sorry.
Author:  papaindigo [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exhaust leaking out rear injector
To post pictures you have to create a free account on an image hosting site like ImageShack and then use the img command to post a picture like into your forum post
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