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Overseas CRD Service Intervals
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=73301		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Glend [ Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Overseas CRD Service Intervals
I put this information into a post elsewhere in answer to a question that was raised, but I thought it might reach more people under the general CRD forum on it's own. Given the debate about what is or is not the appropriate timing belt change interval I thought you might like to see what Chrysler Jeep Australia recommend, and adheres to in it's service schedule (second photo down the page):

The timing belt & tensioner service interval for the KJ 2.5 and 2.8L VM CRD used by Chrysler Jeep Australia is Five Years or 100,000kms (which ever occurs first), and they change them at that mark on vehicles that they are maintaining through the dealer service network.

The timing belt & tensioner change interval in the KJ CRD Service and Warranty Handbook that came with my KJ when I bought it new from the dealer in 2007 (See note below on model year differences) also lists the timing belt change at Five Years or 100,00kms (which ever occurs first). That Service and Warranty Handbook was printed in Australia by Chrysler Jeep (Part # KJEEPSWH107). Note the asterixed item related to the Timing Belt and Tensioner at the bottom of the page 26 photo just below this next title page.

Image

IF you click on the table below it will zoom in enough to be viewed in larger print.

Image


Interestingly, the 2007 version of the Operating Information Booklet (aka the Owners Manual) which was printed in the USA (81-426-07133), shows the TB interval as the US 100,000miles (or 160,000kms) - which we all accept locally as probably a clerical error.

I don't know what VM recommends, but would hope that they had some input to the service schedule. I suspect, being that it is a Euro (Italian) engine, that the interval would be 100,000kms, but have no proof that a simple clerical error is responsble for so much carnage in the US market.

Yes, people accept that as the proper interval (why not) its what is recommended. It also is a very common timing belt change interval in Australia for other manufacturers, my former Subaru had a 100,000km timing belt interval.

I have no further comment on the whole head gasket change thing, as I have never encountered a single case of that being required unless the head needed work as a result of a timing belt break (again usually due to ignoring the service interval).

Note: To help explain the 2007 printed document, while US domestic KJ production was halted with the 2006 model year, Export model production continued to the end of April 2007 when factory was shutdown for retooling. As model year change over is different here, the 2007 produced KJs were sold here as 2007 KJs even though there are none produced for the US market in that year. The KK did not enter the market here until the 2008 model year. According to my build sheet I have one of the last KJ CRDs, produced around the 29th of April 2007.
Author:  Billwill [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
I don't see why you say that 100,000 miles (160,000 kms) is a clerical error.

All the USA owners here replace their belts at 100,000 miles.

My owners' manual for my 2002 2.5 Export CRD here in SA states 160,000 kms...this is for normal..not extreme usage!

The local agents here replaced my belt at 80,000 kms....I do not know why and did not know better at the time. :shock:
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
I replaced mine at 90,000 miles, and it was cracked. I am GLAD I did not wait any longer; it may or may not have made 100,000 miles. Future change intervals for mine WILL BE 60,000 miles or 5 years.
Author:  Billwill [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
LMWatBullRun wrote:
I replaced mine at 90,000 miles, and it was cracked. I am GLAD I did not wait any longer; it may or may not have made 100,000 miles. Future change intercals for mine WILL BE 60,000 miles or 5 years.


I agree....I intend to replace my belt every 100,000 kms (60,000 miles) to be on the safe side. :)
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
For what it's worth from the Gates TB website "When the vehicle manufacturer doesn’t specify a service interval, Gates suggests changing the timing belt at 60,000 miles or every 6 years." The Gates TB catalog lists the interval as 100,000 miles with no specified years of level of service severity for the Jeep. My conclusion is it's best to combine the 2 and go with 6 years or 100,000 miles whichever occurs first. In my case and stoutdog's the change is being done on years not miles. That said I suspect the bearings (idler, WP, and tensioner) can go the full 100,000 miles as wear on them is based on spinning not "rubber" belt decay.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
Yes, I suppose you could do the idlers and WP every second change, but I intend to do the belt every 60k miles from here on out.
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
That works. I guess I should have made it clear that part of my issue is now that my wife and I are retired my annual miles driven, absent some sort of major trip, have dropped drastically hence I'm more focused on time than miles when it comes to belt changes. At a 6yr TB and serp belt interval the miles are going to be like 25-30k so I may skip past several belt jobs before I feel the idlers and such need doing. Of course they will get inspected every time. I'm comfortable taking the bearings to 100k regardless of years as long as they look/feel solid. Belts are another story and I'm not willing to go well into double digits on belt years.
Author:  Glend [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
I have some more information on this topic. I had an email from Keith (GDE) re the history, here is part of that email:

Quote:
VM determined the service intervals with input from Chrysler. The export market was used to 100000 km timing belt service, so that remained the same and no R&D money needed to be spent. The US market is a different beast and virtually every other vehicle had a service interval of 100,000 miles or more. VM had to run several engines past 100,000 miles to verify the timing system integrity for the US market. The decision was based on marketing and customer expectations, thus the two different standards.


I accept that GDE knows it stuff and there was no 'clerical error' but a strategy to adopt 100,000 miles in the US market based on a few test engine results. Unfortunately, engines run in test labs for a period of a week or so can never duplicate the long term (years) of cold and heat soak that the belts go through in an actual vehicle.

Historical performance data should have been available to VM at that time, as we know the engine design was running at a lower capacity in vehicles since 2002. Perhaps any concerns were lost in the need to address the "marketing and customer expectations". Marketing has obviously moved on to this year's latest and greatest (like the Penstar), and there never seems to be any follow up on customer expectations verse the real world.
Author:  ATXKJ [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
I'm thinking that 100,000 KM determined by the Engineering group

is a more reasonable number than 100,000 miles determined by Marketing.......

especially when 100,000 miles was the maximum warranty that Chrysler would be liable for - and only for the smaller group that purchased that warranty...

I just need to get the tools....but that's a one time investment.
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
I'm quoting from the DealerCONNECT system for timing belt service intervals:

2004MY KJ 2.5L R2516K4 160.000km
2006MY RG 2.5L R2516C 160.000km
2007MY KJ 2.8L R2816K7 160.000km
2008MY KK 2.8L RA428 200.000km
2012MY JK 2.8L A428C 200.000km


It might be that Chrysler/Jeep australia wants more of your money...?
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
I will wax philosopical for a moment, so please forgive me.

It may well be that the failure curve for a CRD TB shows a relatively low probability of failure prior to 100k miles, and if that likelihood is say 1% or 2%, or even 10 or 20% that it makes economic sense to set the change interval there, overall. Example:

If vehicle expected life is 250,000 miles, then there are 2 TB/WP changes at $1000 per
versus 4 (2 complete, and 2 just the belt) @~$3200. Shorter interval is $1200 more expensive P&L, less the expected value of the service if the belt fails, or 0.02 x $4000= $80. You can see that the failure rate would have to go way up to justify the costs using these numbers. Of course, this analysis neglects the effect on sales down the road, and also neglects the economic impact on the customer whose Jeep fails, not to mention the personal impact if you happen to be in the back of beyond when it goes.

Which is why I plan to change the TB every 60,000 miles; I am sure that I will be 3 or 4 sigmas under the failure curve at that mileage.
Author:  Glend [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
MrMopar64 wrote:
It might be that Chrysler/Jeep australia wants more of your money...?


Not my money, I do all work on the KJ myself, I have to because I'm retired and could not afford their rates. TB change (belt with new pulleys and tensioner) only cost about $340 in parts delivered to my door from the UK.

Look I'm just presenting the information that was standard issue for overseas purchasers, what you do, or don't do, (or choose to believe) is, as always on any Forum, up to you.

If people want to role the dice on a 100,000 mile TB service interval then go right ahead, but do so in the knowledge that the $ consequences of a broken belt are usually far more expensive than cost of a shorter timing belt change interval.
Author:  bigjl [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
London Taxis TX4 from 2006-now has the 2.5 VM engine as fitted to the UK Cherokee it has a cambelt interval of 72k up till 2011 when it went to 84k.

They are well know for coolant leaks, most people are a bottle of radweld or similar every coolant change as a preventative measure.

OCI 10k up till 2011 then 12k.

The 2.5 and 2.8 are very similar and have same oil filter and I was told the same cambelt kit.

Usually the water pump is not replaced every cambelt change but every other one.

Reaso ing is apparently that the water pump is not driven directly by the cambelt but rather by another belt running off a pulley that runs off the cambelt, all the idler wheels and tensioner are always changed however.

I actually like the way engine sounds, a kind of old school diesel that I always find comforting on tickover!
Author:  Hexus [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
It's my understanding that the 2.8L US version is exactly the same as the 2.5L Euro version, just bored out a bit more.

Same Rockers/Lifters, Same Water Pump, Same timing belt, just different cylinder/piston size, probably cam sprocket, cam, etc. as well, but alas I'm getting too involved in it.
Author:  bigjl [ Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
As far as I know yes the engine is pretty much the same aside from the capacity difference.

All parts, apart from the air filter, seem to cross reference with both engines.

I have had a look at a link to a service manual from elsewhere in this site and had a quick skim over it.

An excellent bit of info and I have emailed a copy to friends that have a couple of 2.5's in Zimbabwe.

I still believe it is a solid engine if treated the right way.

The Italian Army still uses the engine in patrol boats, and that wouldn't continue if the engine was failing regularly.

At least it sounds like a diesel engine! Most modern diesels in Europe no longer sound like a diesel used to.

A mate and I coined the phrase "oily diesel" for the sound you get from a well maintained high mileage diesel engine, lol.

There is something strangely comforting about a largish, low revving diesel on tickover.

Must take me back to the days many years ago when I used to work as a courier in a van!


I believe the 2.5 diesel version was fitted to some US market minivans, Chrysler Voyager over here, back in the 90's.

I don't think it sold much in the US though, but I have seen some in Spain.
Author:  Pippobug [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
bigjl wrote:
As far as I know yes the engine is pretty much the same aside from the capacity difference.

I believe the 2.5 diesel version was fitted to some US market minivans, Chrysler Voyager over here, back in the 90's.

I don't think it sold much in the US though, but I have seen some in Spain.


The engine you are talking about is the VM 2.5 TD that has been around since 1986 in various forms, not the CRD version. This version the CRD came along from 2000 onwards with 4 valves per cylinder, the previous had only 2 valves, great engine, power Alfa, Range Rover, Jeep Cherockee XJ & YJ and a hole heap of other vehicles & boats. Came also in 3 cylinders up to 6 cylynder, from 1.8L to 3.6 L (great engine saw it fitted and running in a Range Rover Classic back in 1989, it performed better then the V8 enigne of the time, shame it was a bit front heavy, I workend for the guy fitting them for a summer).
Author:  bigjl [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Overseas CRD Service Intervals
I didn't know the older Cherokee Diesel engine was also a VM, I know it had a habit of cracking heads though.

The engines that are identical aside from capacity would be the later one then.

As fitted to the later Cherokee/Liberty from around '02.

And the LDV Maxus van and TX4 Taxi from 2006.

As i rent out the Taxi along with a mate that rents out four I have done lots of cross checking to make sure I am getting best quality parts at best prices.

I have found a company in the UK that can supply Baldwin oil filters and fuel filters for the Taxi/Cherokee.

Was going to start another thread and put up the part numbers.

I have heard some very good things about Baldwin filters, the fact that the oil filters are under £3 and the fuel filters are around a tenner is a bonus.

I was very interested to read the link in the noob section to the workshop manual.

It shows just how advanced the VM engine was when brought to market.

But like all advanced Diesel engines they need to be looked after better than the old school ones.

A London Taxi has a 15 yr lifespan before it can no longer be plated up for use in London(unless you get an exemption for converting to LPG) which means mine has 10 yrs left in it.

At current rate it will have done another 450k then, add that to the current 180k and you have a lot of miles over a lifetime.

630k miles!!!!

I want to get at least 300k miles from the current engine.

Over halfway there!
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