CRD and Diesel Cylinder Wall Cavitation

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:32 pm

Cavitation is a localized low pressure zone that forms adjacent to the outer wall of the cylinder. It is caused by by the flexing of the cylinder wall due to the high cylinder pressures experienced in diesel engine ignition. Gasoline engines don't typically get this failure mode due to lower cylinder pressures during ignition. Basically what happens is the cylinder wall quickly expands due to ignition then returns to its original geometry. This expansion of the cylinder wall is more pronounced as you increase the demand for power. Bascially when you increase your demand for power you are pumping more fuel into the cylinder. If you have a turbo charged unit you are also increasing air charge. This increase in fuel and air causes a more violent ignition which further increases cylinder pressures and thus increases the flexing of the cylinder wall. This fast cylinder wall movement causes a low pressure zone to be created in the coolant adjacent to the cylinder wall. When this pressure zone drops below the vapor pressure point (temperature, coolant ratio, and additive dependant) a vapor bubble is formed. When this low pressure zone returns to a high pressure zone, the vapor bubble collapses, causing an implosion, or pitting phenomena on the cylinder wall (like hitting the surface with a microscopic ball peen hammer). If left unchecked, it will eventually eat all the way through the cylinder wall.

Has anyone seen literature for any Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA)that is within spec for the R428 to help retard cavitation or is the current coolant that DCX supplies adequate to retard cavitation?

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:49 pm

Does the removeable wet-sleeve design of the R428 have any bearing on this? Seems like the engine is a very well thought-out design.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:07 pm

LibertyCRD wrote:

Does the removeable wet-sleeve design of the R428 have any bearing on this? Seems like the engine is a very well thought-out design.

Cavitation is only a problem in engines that use blocks with pressed-in wet sleeve cylinder liners. No engines in the VW diesel family, including TDIs, use pressed-in wet sleeve cylinder liners so cavitation is not an issue for VW diesel owners. All VW diesel cylinder liners are cast as part of the block and do not have any cavitation problem.

Wet liners are less rigid than dry liners or cast liners. The shock wave is transmitted through the liner and is absorbed by the coolant. The shock waves are very high frequency and high amplitude and actually push the coolant away from the liner. For the few milliseconds that the coolant is pushed away from the cylinder liner, tiny steam bubbles form and cause pits in the liner. ALL the big diesel manufacturers that use wet liners sell a special coolant additive to prevent cavitation. If the additive is used, engines with wet liners last as long as any engine design.

b1gmoose · **Joined:** Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:36 pm **Posts:** 9

DZL_LOU wrote:

Has anyone seen literature for any Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA)that is within spec for the R428 to help retard cavitation or is the current coolant that DCX supplies adequate to retard cavitation?

Anybody know sources at Amsoil that would be able to confirm if their coolant (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ant.aspx ) would work?

It's used in class 8 diesel engines, and has extended service intervals. I want to use this in my CRD once I purchase it.

~ryan

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Has anyone seen literature for any Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA)that is within spec for the R428 to help retard cavitation or is the current coolant that DCX supplies adequate to retard cavitation?

I searched for quite a while online, to see if any SCA was available for diesel engines using HOAT coolant. Couldn't find any diesel engine anti-cavitation product that was designed to be used with HOAT coolant - most specifically were designed for glcycol base coolants. Some sites even warned against mixing HOAT and glycol coolants. If you do find one, ask them if its specifically recommended for use in HOAT systems.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

From the DieselStop forum:

Quote:

Coolant System Maintenance

Cooling system maintenance is a very simple but necessary item to do to keep the engine running later in life. Diesels, particularly the Powerstroke diesels (PSDs), are prone to a problem called cavitation. This is where the vibration in the engine causes the linings in the cooling system to eat themselves away and cause block failure.

To prevent cavitation, Ford now uses a special “gold” or yellow antifreeze named Motorcraft Premium Gold or Zerex G-05. PSDs manufactured since early in the 2002 model year have the gold coolant. For those trucks, no cooling system maintenance is required other than keeping the coolant level full and then doing a complete drain and flush at 100,000 miles.

But 1999 through early 2002 PSDs use a special low-silicate green antifreeze that requires maintenance. To prevent cavitation, a sacrificial chemical called a supplemental coolant additive (SCA) needs to be added to the system periodically. And the coolant needs to be tested periodically using special test strips. SCA and the test strips can be purchased at major diesel stores such as your local International dealer, Ford Dealer, or over the Internet through Diesel Injection Service (www.dieselpage.com). And the coolant needs to be drained, flushed, and replaced every 2 years or 30,000 miles, whichever comes first.

There are two kinds of SCA, and they are not the same chemical....
Premium Gold by Ford is the same as Zerex G-05 and Mopar Extended Life coolant (dyed Dexcool orange...go figure!).

The G05 mentioned as safe for diesel engines I found on this site, with this statement:

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products ... product=10

# Protection for up to 5 years / 150,000 miles
# Approved by Ford and DaimlerChrysler for use in automotive and diesel engines.
# Utilizes hybrid organic acid technology to minimize inhibitor depletion
# Low-silicate, low-pH and phosphate-free formula
# Provides protection against liner pitting and corrosion

What vehicles use Zerex G-05 in the factory fill and what is the dye color?
1984 Mercedes and beyond (light yellow)
1990 Deere and Company vehicles and beyond (green)
2001 Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep and beyond (orange)

What aftermarket products are approved by Ford and Chrysler?
Ford, Lincoln, Mercury brands - Ford Motorcraft Gold and Zerex G-05
Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep brands –Mopar 5/100 Antifreeze and Zerex G-05

And finally this:

Can Zerex G-05 be used in diesel applications?
Yes. Zerex G-05 is a fully formulated (nitrite containing) coolant that will help protect diesel engine cylinder liners from pitting corrosion. It has also been approved by Cummins and Deere & Company.

So it would seem that the orange factory fill from Jeep that came in our CRD's is supposed to have the anti-cavitation SCA already built in. But I could find nothing from DCX that stated anything specifically for the diesel engine and SCA supplemental additives.

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:45 am

Ranger1 wrote:

From the DieselStop forum:

Quote:

Coolant System Maintenance

And finally this:

Can Zerex G-05 be used in diesel applications?
Yes. Zerex G-05 is a fully formulated (nitrite containing) coolant that will help protect diesel engine cylinder liners from pitting corrosion. It has also been approved by Cummins and Deere & Company.

So it would seem that the orange factory fill from Jeep that came in our CRD's is supposed to have the anti-cavitation SCA already built in. But I could find nothing from DCX that stated anything specifically for the diesel engine and SCA supplemental additives.

Ranger1, thanks for the diligence on the info and passing it along. I also have not found any specific information on this from DCX. Perhaps with DCX they are guilty of the sin of omission. If DCX omits supplying supplemental coolant information then one can only infer that it is implied to retard cavitation, or omission may also mean that we as consumers we can't say that we were lied to.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

The section on Zerex website that stated that DCX is using Zerex G05 coolant as factory fill for 2001 and up Jeeps leads me to believe that our orange HOAT is the correct antifreeze for diesel engines. But you can bet I'll be doing a complete cooling system change at the 5 year/100K milestone just to be sure.

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:11 pm

b1gmoose wrote:

DZL_LOU wrote:

Has anyone seen literature for any Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA)that is within spec for the R428 to help retard cavitation or is the current coolant that DCX supplies adequate to retard cavitation?

Anybody know sources at Amsoil that would be able to confirm if their coolant (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ant.aspx ) would work?

It's used in class 8 diesel engines, and has extended service intervals. I want to use this in my CRD once I purchase it.

~ryan

I am looking into it. I will report back as soon as I find out.
John

jinstall · **Posted:** Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:28 am

Please do not take this the wrong way but alot of you seem really nervous about the CRD. I have seen tons of these running around and never heard of any issues with these motors. The German drive way harder and tow more crap than 90% of drivers in the US. When I see 1.8L TDCi Ford Focus 5dr towing a 12ft camper down the highway (autobahn) then they have to be doing something right. I think it was 47% of all car sold last year in Germany were diesel powered. Maybe it is the issue of the high sulfer fuel in the US. diesel is a new product to the US but here in europe it has been used widely for some time now.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:47 am

I agree. The people I know with over a half-million miles on their diesel pickup trucks probably don't even know what "cavitation" means. Diesels have a reputation here because they last forever even when abused or given little service. Personally I'm not worried about special coolant, and I also don't have a Provent yet and probably never will.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:21 am

In the context of the Jeep CRD, cavatation probably won't be an issue. It's caused by a change in the chemistry of your antifreeze as it looses it's anti-corrosion chemicals over time. Corrosion literally eats through the liners. Change your antifreeze when you change your timing belt (and waterpump) at 100K, it won't be a concern. If you are concerned and want to test for the problem, see your Detroit Diesel dealer for a bottle of test strips (looks like litmus strips) and check it. This is a concern in a OTR truck or bus with very large cooling systems (a bus holds @ 30 gal) and you don't want to trash that much antrifreeze. Common large systems to use an add-on antifreeze filter that leeches fresh chemicals, change the spin-on filter annually. Change the antifreeze as scheduled and this jeep will probably fall apart long before the engine will experience cavation.

spoonplugger1 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:01 am

Cavitation is a non-issue in the US or anywhere also if you keep your antifreeze up. Been a working on diesels for over 25 years and have never seen a failure due to cavitation. More likely I've seen problems of overheating due to scale in the engine due to too much or not enough antifreeze.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:06 pm

I have not personally seen a failure from cavitation but I have seen severely pitted liners on a N-14 and several DT-466's. It does happen, I have seen examples at a Cummins dealer.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:22 pm

I saw a cavatated Series 60 liner at the local DDA shop and also got lectured by their service manager. A dirty little practice in the bus world is not using antifreeze for top-off once the weather warms up. By Fall, you would have mostly water in the cooling system (and a lot of scale). Up until @ 10 yrs ago, most coaches still had Series 92 motors and it didn't make much difference as they would usually grenade long before they would have a chance to cavate. Let just say that I lost at "Series 92 roulette" several times. Series 60 motors changed that game.

b1gmoose · **Joined:** Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:36 pm **Posts:** 9

I got a reply from Amsoil about using their Antifreeze http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ant.aspx in the CRD.

Here is their response:
"
Thank you for contacting AMSOIL with your concerns.

In response to your inquiry, AMSOIL Antifreeze and Coolant, ANT, is recommended for this vehicle. It meets and exceeds diesel engine requirements.

Thank you again for the opportunity to respond to your concerns. As always, please feel free to contact us again if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

Byron Selbrede

AMSOIL Technical Service
"

Here is the question I posted to Amsoil:
"I have a customer with an 06 Jeep Liberty CRD (Diesel) and I need to know if the Amsoil Antifreeze meets the requirements for Anti Cylinder Wall Cavitation in a diesel engine. Thank you, ~ryan"

HTH

~ryan

CRD and Diesel Cylinder Wall Cavitation

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