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Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
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Author:  nccmama [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
My husband bought a 2006 Liberty a few months ago. It ran great but would flash warning lights occasionally that didn't seem to make sense. "Part-time" but the 4x4 was not engaged, "low cool" but the coolant level seemed fine, seatbelt chimes even though the belt was buckled, no wait to start light or 4x4 engagement light; it seemed that the dash had a mind of its own. Since the truck seemingly ran just fine, these warning lights were taken with a grain of salt, so to speak, and we sort of got used to them. But last week, I was driving it in town and I noticed that the heat was not blowing hot air. I looked at the temp gauge and saw that it was all the way to the right. So, I immediately pulled over into a parking lot, turned off the engine, and popped the hood. I expected to see steam, smoke, or at least feel a lot of heat, but the engine looked and felt very normal. I called my husband, and he thought it was probably a faulty gauge or sensor, and he advised me to keep going. The engine started like normal, and I drove another mile to my destination. Again, the gauge was all the way to hot, yet the engine felt normal. But, this time after letting it sit for an hour, it would not start. Towed it to Firestone who said the computer diagnostic said that the camshaft and crankshaft sensors were out. Took it to the dealer who says that he can't get any compression and the engine is toast. How could I have overheated it without the engine feeling hot? Does this make sense?
Author:  kissfan79 [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
Hello....
First off....welcome.....where are you located. Your nickname has me wondering if you are in North Carolina. It does sound like you have some funky poltergeists going on behind your dashboard. After the last time you pulled over and checked the engine after shutting it off....did you recall seeing any coolant in the resevour on the passenger side? Did the dealer say how they checked for compression?

Jim
Author:  racertracer [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
The electrical poltergeist maybe from a chafed wiring harness. A 2006 CRD issue in the engine compartment.
Author:  nccmama [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
Thanks for the replies and for the welcome (I'm in Texas). It looks like we are going to be making a decision on the life or death of our little Liberty, so I appreciate advice from more experienced owners. The dealer thinks it will be not worth fixing, and for the price he is quoting me so far, I'd have to reluctantly agree.

I asked the dealer how he did the compression test, and he didn't give it a name but said that it was not an electrical test--- put a sensor into a "plug", turned engine over, and it read "no compression." Firestone said that they couldn't test compression because they couldn't start it, so the dealer must have had some other kind of device. Does this sound right?

So, basically, what dealer is saying is that something is majorly wrong with the engine, and since it had apparently overheated because gauge went to far right, I must have either blown a head gasket (best case scenario) or melted out the internals of the engine (worst case scenario). He said we won't know unless we take engine apart, and in his opinion, that would be money wasted because he is pretty sure that I fried the engine.

However, it gives me great pause to trust this guy because the original quote he gave me to replace the engine was for a GAS engine--- not diesel. He said he didn't realize it was diesel, but then assured me that his guys are capable of working on it, but that they just don't see them very often since not many were made. Not sure how a service manager could be trying to diagnose an engine and not even realize he was looking at a diesel. Plus, with all of the weird dashboard stuff prior to the incident, AND the engine not actually feeling hot to the touch, I question how much damage could have been done. Dealer says that overheating is internal and that the heat doesn't always come out the top so it's possible to damage an engine without the classic visible signs of smoke and heat.

So, to answer the questions from kissfan79 (thanks for the response!): I didn't look for or notice any coolant in the reservoir, but it was dark, so it may have been there. I didn't check the level at that point, but after driving it that last mile to destination (where it later would not start), my husband checked it the next day and it had lost about 6 quarts. So, there certainly does seem to be something going on with the cooling system (no heat from heater prior to incident), but could it have been enough to destroy the whole engine?

Thanks again for listening to my sad story.
Author:  papaindigo [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
Several thoughts/comments:
1. I suspect you talked with the service writer who is almost never very knowledgable about vehicle mechanics and often incapable of transmitting your symptom descriptions to the techs or the reverse so the mis-quote is not too surprising. If you want to get the straight dope you need to talk to the manager of the service dept or better yet the tech.
2. you can test compression of the CRD if you have the Miller tool. I'm not up on the procedure but believe it involves inserting the tool in each fuel injector hole which means pulling the injectors. I find the "no compression" a bit startling but FYI testing compression does not involve starting the engine, physically cannot as gas or diesel you have to open the cylinder to atmosphere to test, rather it simply involves being able to crank the engine over with the starter.
3. loss of 6qts of coolant, assuming that's how much it took to refill, is massive as the system only holds about 13 qts. Combine that with no heat from the heater I'm guessing you suffered a head gasket failure. There should have been overhate warning chimes and various automatic system shutdowns to prevent major damage but with the electric systems issues they may not have worked.

What to do. Don't depend on the dealer for your decision. The engine is either toast or it's not. If it's toast there are good used engines out there but whether or not you want to pay the cost of getting one and doing an install is another issue. On the other hand you may just have blown a head gasket and have a warped head which is much less expensive. Given that you are in Texas I'd recommend making contact (pm or email) with galatron and turbobill in Austin; jinstall who I believe is in El Paso; and Sir Sam in Ft. Collins, CO (I mention him because he has brought several CRDs back from the dead so to speak). All of them can provide much better advice than the dealer.

X2 on probably wiring harness chaffing behind the fuel filter head. A not uncommon source of odd electrical happenings on an 06
Author:  ibedonc [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
I am in Austin
Author:  ATXKJ [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
ibedonc wrote:
I am in Austin

me too


ncc - I'm not sure of the problem - but a couple of points

The number one issue on these from the beginning has been a lack of trained Tech's - Jeep dealership's got a 45min video - 8 years ago.
best bet is someone who knows diesel - someone who services Sprinter/Cummins - they at least have a clue.
(I don't know anyone - my one good tech - moved)

06's had another issue - they moved the fuel head to make way for an ESC brake pump - the move bumped into a wiring harness and can damage wires causing random intermittent electrical problems.

The engine is supposed to have a overheat protection - if you really overheated it - it should have been making loud noises and cutting fuel to the engine - it should not be capable of overheating enough to kill it
(warped heads are a totally different issue - but the engine doesn't die)

if the engine turns and the dealership can't measure compression - they don't know how to work on the engine.
even a worn out engine will measure something - sounds like they're looking at a computer - not the engine.

The Dealership will quote you the cost of a new engine from the factory - which is more than the value of the Jeep - there are available used engines a lot cheaper - but you'll probably need an independent shop to install it.


(I missed the no heat comment in the first post - that is an indicator of low coolant - doesn't change the overheat alarms and fuel cutoff )
Author:  nccmama [ Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
Okay, guys, here is some new information.

I had it towed to an independent mechanic who knows diesels. He said that the timing belt was loose, and that all 16 rocker arms are broken, but so far the valves don't look bent. I looked over this forum, and rocker arms/timing belts seem to be a common issue. So, if my belt slipped and caused all of the rockers to fail, when did this happen? The engine was running fine, and I would not have suspected that anything was wrong if the heater would not have been blowing cold air which made me look at the temperature gauge and see the dial too high. When did the rockers break? I drove it until I parked and turned it off, so they were intact up until then, right?

Of note is that the dealership was looking at the timing belt because they left the cover off and lost a bolt. Did they cause the rockers to break in their attempt to diagnose?
Author:  msilbernagel [ Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
How many miles on your engine?

As for the why's.. I wonder if the water pump seized and took it out? Or perhaps, just the heat was enough to finish the job.

Chances are, if the belt just 'let go', you have 105k-115k miles on it?

Mark
Author:  ATXKJ [ Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
The rocker arms are a designed weak point - they should break first and protect the valves.

a water pump - leaking and then seizing would make a lot of sense in this situation

although before I put everything back together - I would pull the head and have it checked for flatness and cracks.

you'd be adding a head gasket and bolt set to the expense but you'd have done most of the labor already.

I'm real nervous about the head and overheating.
Author:  nccmama [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start- UPDATE
UPDATE:

Sorry for the delayed update. The Jeep lives, but it is not out of the woods, yet.

I found a great independent local diesel shop who was willing to tackle the job. As many of you suspected, the rocker arms all failed, saving the engine. It looks like the trigger was the water pump/radiator/timing belt--- all of which were replaced. So, it looks like we could have saved ourselves a lot of $$ and pain by doing suggested timing belt service (didn't realize it, being new owners).

So, it seemingly runs well, but there still seems to be something going on in the dash. There is no "wait to start" light (should there be?), the "part time" light is frequently on, the "lo cool" light will still come on upon start up and chime for a few minutes until the engine warms up and then it goes off, and the check engine light will occasionally come on. The diagnostic code is reading that the check engine light is for the ERG. But, the low coolant light is what seems to have started this whole thing, yet the coolant level is steady---no visible leakage or fluid level decrease in the reservoir.

I don't want to ignore any symptoms, but not sure what to do now. You guys have been great and so knowledgeable! Any more ideas about these dashboard lights?

Thanks!
Author:  flash7210 [ Wed May 15, 2013 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start- UPDATE
nccmama wrote:
UPDATE:



There is no "wait to start" light (should there be?),
The wait to start light turns on/off really quick. Blink and you will miss it

the "part time" light is frequently on,
This is controled by a switch on the transfer case. Work the lever through all positions to see if you can get it to turn off

the "lo cool" light will still come on upon start up and chime for a few minutes until the engine warms up and then it goes off,
check the coolant level. This is just a float switch in the coolant tank

and the check engine light will occasionally come on. The diagnostic code is reading that the check engine light is for the ERG.
typical problem for a CRD. Hopfully it is stuck CLOSED
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed May 15, 2013 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
Comments:
1. there is no wait to start light. Take a look at your owner's manual, in glove box hidden on top shelf or if not there down load from Sir Sam's NOOB guide link or the Jeep Owner's site, for the small glow plug light location. Except in the dead of a cold winter it illuminates for like <1 sec on startup and is incredibly easy to miss.
2. part time light is probably a bad or sticky sensor in center console. See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=59788 if you need a new sensor it's probably PN 5083138AA
3. as far as I know the low coolant light is driven off a single sensor on the bottom of the coolant tank (located on the firewall and held in place by 2 machine screws up top and a flange that slides into a recess at the bottom of the tank). If the coolant level is ok you either have bad switch contact (clean and apply dielectric grease) or a bad switch (don't have the PN)
4. EGR - what's the code. The EGR is possible to clean but the best long term fix for your vehicle performance, mpg, and engine life is likely a GDE EcoTune.
Author:  MedicPatriot [ Wed May 15, 2013 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
Same thing happened to me. I dumped all of my coolant from the water pump and the dealer said they would not try to fix this engine because it was fried. Towed to a private mechanic and they found it was the water pump that caused the timing belt to jump and break the rockers. It runs now.

Bottom line: never listen to the dealers.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Wed May 15, 2013 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
Glad you are back on the road. Keep in mind that when ANY vehicle suddenly stops making hot air from the heater, it has most likely lost a lot of coolant and you need to stop immediately. The combination of this fact and a "pegged" temp gauge make this obvious, but typically, too late to avoid huge expense. You are incredibly lucky to have driven through this and ended up with an easily fixable situation.

However, some vehicles do not register properly when the coolant is low. Some stop making heat and the temp gauge runs BELOW normal because the sensor has no coolant flowing over it.

DOC
Author:  racertracer [ Thu May 16, 2013 3:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Liberty Sport overheated?- now won't start
That low coolant light scares the heck out me.

Could a blown head gasket be the cause?

Here are a few questions for you.

1. Do you see any amount of coolant on the right side of the plastic coolant expansion tank... the reservoir part of the expansion tank.

2. Do you have a small puddle of coolant under the passenger side of the car at the back of the front tire?

Have you performed the one minute pressure under the radiator cap test, yet?
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