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researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block heat
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Author:  Oilburner44 [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block heat
I AM NOT TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THE BLOCK HEATER CORD IS!!! :google:

So i will make my introduction first as this is my first post to this forum.

My Father owned a crd back in '06 and i finally have broken down to buying one myself. I own a 05 sport crd. WITH 125K

I live in VT and i am huge into the offroad scene have been since i was a teenager, own a fullsize dodge that i take in the woods but now have my eyes focused on this rig. I am not trying to be full of myself by any means, just trying to give everyone a understanding on where i am coming from. I have a automotive degree from Vermont technical College.

NOW ONTO THE QUESTION

I have been on your forum now for about two weeks, without beeing signed up trying to figure out my hard starts on the jeep. I have done all the research on the g/p's, the block heater, and the air in fuel/leaking. So if you have been hearing the news NEW ENGLAND has been having some pretty cold spurts. The first night i wanted to see how bad she was gonna sound if i didnt plug her in. The next morning WOULD NOT START, it took my 10 minutes of cranking till it finally cam into it and started. The next couple of days i plugged in the block heater to see if this would help. It was factory ziptied to the dipstick so clearly it hadnt been used much if not ever. It didnt help at all.

SO first question is, how many people plug there block heaters in and how many after it beeing plugged in for the night have their temp gauge rise at all the next morning?
HOW many use their block heater and find that it does nothing for you.
and finally How many find yourself trying to start your rig for 20 minutes in -15 degree weather till she finally runs.

-NOTED: i have a good battery, Brand new starter, G/P are as far as i know the ceramics still, Have no codes for bad G/P's, I have cycled the key 3 times before even attempting to fire.

I havent Diaged the block heater yet because i hear its a PITA to get too, anyone replace it?


FOR NOW I HAVE ORDERED A PAN HEATER BECAUSE IM SICK OF MAKING MY BRAND NEW STARTER WORK SO HARD, but would liek to hear what everyone has to say good and bad!
Author:  dgeist [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Hi, OB44. It sounds like the heater may be a red herring. The heater helps keep the ambient temp of the block up to temp in the very cold (i.e. I seldom even bother in GA). You may feel it justified in the hills of VA a little more. Regardless, the engine shouldn't take that long to crank even if it's -20 when you start. The glow plugs are (obviously) there to help heat up the chambers to get the temps up to where they'll combust under compression like a good diesel should. If you have no codes, your GPs are likely fine (as you stated). If you're getting the little dash light when you first start in the AM, then that confirms that the relay is functioning. It's unlikely that the GP cycle was as long as you describe your cranking, at least not without burning themselves to a crisp.

Knowing that it eventually DID start says that it got warm enough and since we know compression was going, so the only thing left is lack of fuel. The "air-in-fuel" head problem IS exaggerated by colder temps and it may be that either 1) you have a clogged filter and just need a new one, or 2) have air in your filter head and need to bleed/replace it (depending on severity).

Don't throw in the towel and start throwing money at it just yet.

Good Luck
Dan
Author:  Oilburner44 [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Thanks dan, taking in everything your saying, i did do a fuel filter "prime" by pumping the pump above the filter. After i did that it felt as though it was harder to start. I believe it is my Block heater, does anyone have a write up on hows it replaced or even the location? i know its behind the alternator and looks like it goes between G/P 1 and 2 then the wire dissapears. And yes Dan, the relay works, light comes on for about a count of 2 to 3 seconds and goes out. Does anyone know if Napa or anywhere else carries a Replacement Block heater so i dont have to drive all the way to the dealer?

thanks in advance!

Not throwing money away yet, but figured id like the extra security of having a back up heater!

Also how much is our block heater suppose to heat up the coolant? some say on here they have a the temp gauge up a quarter with the key in the on position, and some say the gauge reads nothing and only helps the ol' ice cube turn over.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
I have never seen my gauge reach 1/4 using the block heater. My gauge does not move at all, but it starts instantly and does not sound like there is a rock quarry under the hood when it starts dead cold in single digits. I don't see how it is possible to get to 1/4 on the gauge with only the block heater unless you are plugging it in during the summer, which is foolish... Sounds like something is amiss. Even without the block heater it should start right up, or at least start with ease. I suspect the fuel filter or some other issue. I wonder if the glow plugs were updated or if something is not working right there. Code or no code, something is wrong. Do you get a lot of smoke once it starts cold? If so, something is definitely wrong with the GP's or your compression.
Author:  skates04 [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
I live in Colorado and I plug mine in pretty much when ever the temp is going to be below freezing. My gauge is alway bottomed out when it starts (Never had the 1/4 way up), and it takes a couple minutes of driving to get heat. When it is plugged it always starts up extremely smooth like it has been running and warmed up already. I really have only forgotten to plug it in once and the start was pretty rough and took 2-3 times turning it over (about 10 degrees).
Author:  Caddis [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
My jeep also starts almost immediately after being plugged in, even after it sat out all day in -15 temps a couple of days ago while I was at work. The gp's hardly even flashed. I too have never seen the block heater raise the temp gauge at all. This morning my jeep sat out unplugged in -5 temps for about 6 hrs and I didn't plug it in (should have), the gp's fired for a solid 5 seconds before it started and it sounded pretty rough for a few seconds. My jeep is spoiled and lives in a 45 degree garage most nights but the block heater seems to make a huge difference when it's needed. Good luck problem solving, you obviously shouldn't be having quite that much trouble getting it started.
Author:  Gokeeper [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
With the block Heater Jeep starts easily in -5 weather here in Nebraska without the block heater its a hard if at all start. I have never had the temp gauge show anything until upon a start with or without the block heater.

Sounds like your block heater is malfunctioning I would use an amp clamp on the cord see what she reads. That would be a quick easy test.
Author:  CATCRD [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Gokeeper wrote:
With the block Heater Jeep starts easily in -5 weather here in Nebraska without the block heater its a hard if at all start. I have never had the temp gauge show anything until upon a start with or without the block heater.

Sounds like your block heater is malfunctioning I would use an amp clamp on the cord see what she reads. That would be a quick easy test.

Yes check the heater itself. Measure the resistance between the prongs, should be about 34ohms if memory serves.
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Comments:
1. I've replaced a block heater cord but not the heater itself. Took 2 people mainly for the up top person to wiggle the cord so I could find the bottom end and to feed the new cord to me. Even with the front skid in place I don't recall access being too bad.
2. the block heater will not supply enough heat to register on the temp gauge but it will smooth out starts and significantly cut your engine warm up time.
3. I cannot help on how, not much on electrics, but checking the functionality of the block heater shouldn't be too hard.
4. absent a CEL your glow plugs are probably ok but it's easy enough to check by measuring resistance at the controller, see viewtopic.php?f=98&t=70159
5. one member out west was having similar problems recently that were solved by use of winter fuel treatment and IIRC a 2n gen fuel head. See Sir Sam's NOOD guide for info on that fuel head and how to bleed (I mention the latter because just pumping the primer is not going to bleed air out of the system.

At 125,000 miles can I assume you have proof positive that the timing belt has been changed. If not do so like right now.
Author:  Oilburner44 [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Thanks guys! i will be measuring the current tomorrow. I am pretty sure the G/P's havent been replaced. I have black smoke when trying to start, then after it fires its black for maybe 4 to 5 seconds and then is water vapor white (not white smoke like a coolant leak) Has anyone replaced the block heater before and if so where is it, i believe its somewhere behind the alternator, but since it has been so cold out lately i have had no ambition on looking to hard.

On a side note, another probllem with the starting itll start come up to 1000 rpms then slowly drop and die, then i start it again and hold the key to keep it turning over and it will run with the assistance of the starter and when starter is stopped, it will die. I have been doing this to get the cylinders warm, then after a couple of these itll fire, run ruff liek a box of rocks, then smooth out and be fine.
Author:  Hoosier CRD [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Welcome to the site, hope that you find it increasingly helpful. On to your problem...

The block heater element itself may in fact be good. After reading your last post, it sounds like you have an injector issue. Black smoke for 4-5 seconds after start-up does not occur on my CRD. Hard starting is a worn injector warning sign. Not suggesting that you change them, per se, BUT, keep it in the back of your mind as a last result if all else is good.

Of late here in Indiana, with single digit temps and block heater plugged in all night my CRD fires up and runs fine. Temp gauge is not up in the dial at all for a few minutes at least.

Black smoke is too much fuel. Perhaps one or more injector is slobbering into the cylinder and it is more promenient when sitting overnight.

I'm assuming that the fuel filter is good/clean and that you are using good diesel fuel.

Some fuel additives may be in order. Suggest Stanadyne Performance Formula on a regular basis. If you fear diesel fuel gelling, suggest "FPPF Meltdown." Hope this helps.
Author:  Big Montana [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
I plug in all the time in Michigan and it starts real smooth in the morning. After work though, it takes about 4-5 seconds to start because I can't plug in there. It belches white smoke only, but I do flood the whole lot. My teacher friends love it. Never black smoke though. There must be something wrong if it does nothing for you. Have you tried a heated garage start to eliminate the heater cord?
Author:  Oilburner44 [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Hoosier CRD wrote:
Welcome to the site, hope that you find it increasingly helpful. On to your problem...

The block heater element itself may in fact be good. After reading your last post, it sounds like you have an injector issue. Black smoke for 4-5 seconds after start-up does not occur on my CRD. Hard starting is a worn injector warning sign. Not suggesting that you change them, per se, BUT, keep it in the back of your mind as a last result if all else is good.

Of late here in Indiana, with single digit temps and block heater plugged in all night my CRD fires up and runs fine. Temp gauge is not up in the dial at all for a few minutes at least.

Black smoke is too much fuel. Perhaps one or more injector is slobbering into the cylinder and it is more promenient when sitting overnight.

I'm assuming that the fuel filter is good/clean and that you are using good diesel fuel.

Some fuel additives may be in order. Suggest Stanadyne Performance Formula on a regular basis. If you fear diesel fuel gelling, suggest "FPPF Meltdown." Hope this helps.



I run howes in my tank. I have not yet tried putting a little bit of 2 stroke in my tank though to help conserve the injectors (its probably past that point if they are bad) My fuel filter is clean and new. I will be keeping that in the back of my mind plus the G/ps


Big Montana wrote:
I plug in all the time in Michigan and it starts real smooth in the morning. After work though, it takes about 4-5 seconds to start because I can't plug in there. It belches white smoke only, but I do flood the whole lot. My teacher friends love it. Never black smoke though. There must be something wrong if it does nothing for you. Have you tried a heated garage start to eliminate the heater cord?


The jeep runs fine in normal temps, just cold weather it hates. The black smoke it minimal and usually only when its trying to fire and wont. Then as you say it covers the yard with white smoke.

THANKS FOR THE REPLIES GUYS, AND KEEP THEM COMING SO I CAN DO TESTS ON EVERYTHING.

Im going to install the oil pan heater pad this week or the beginning of next and see where that gets me.
Author:  naturist [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
I rarely use the block heater. My CRD starts after a few seconds of cranking down to 20 or so. This morning it was 11 here in Virginia, so I plugged the heater in for about 2 hours. It did not register any heat on the gauge, but it started almost instantly. I have used it a couple times when it's gotten below zero, and always the Jeep started almost instantly after only a couple hours on the heater. It has NEVER belched black smoke on startup, only a little white smoke (completely unburned fuel) if I have to crank it more than maybe 5 seconds.

It does sound as though the OP has something else going on.
Author:  user113 [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
As a reference for you, my block heater draws 3.5 A at 120 V, or a measly 420 W. You should also be able to verify functionality by measurements from an IR thermometer, if you have access to one.
Author:  Oilburner44 [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
user113 wrote:
As a reference for you, my block heater draws 3.5 A at 120 V, or a measly 420 W. You should also be able to verify functionality by measurements from an IR thermometer, if you have access to one.


thank you! I will be hopefully checking it today or tomorrow, now time to go out this morning and see if i can get her running, as of right now its -14 out. WISH ME LUCK :5SHOTS:
Author:  Drewd [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Answers to your questions:

I've only used the blocked heater 3-4 times in the past 6 years of ownership. If engine needs block heat to start it means you have a mechanical/electrical deficiency.

I've started my CRD and other diesels in -20 deg F weather with no block heater or problems other than clatter from engine's timing naturally advanced when cold. All of my cold starts are above 6500 feet ASL.

A good battery and functional glow plugs is all you need. I don't use block heat because I need to know my CRD will start at cold temps when outside in high altitude extremely cold mountain areas after a day of snowmobiling and/or staying overnight at a mountainside B&B.

PS: I also feel that a lift pump and upgraded fuel head (I use a RACOR) are almost mandatory in our CRDs. There is a noticeable difference in ease/speed of engine starts with a lift pump and quality fuel filter head.
Author:  Billy M [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Just for a reference...

I plugged in my block heater last night (for the first time to try it). This morning it was 13 degrees, my CRD started normally. The engine temp did not register on the gauge. I did have minimal heat immediately. Not great by any means, but better than the 13 degrees outside! The engine sounded quiet/normal (not like a typical cold start). I was happy with the performance of the block heater.

The newer style fuel filter head was on my CRD when I got it. My CRD has started on roughly the 5th compression stroke, regardless of temperature outside.

I'm not sure how that will compare to everyone else's, but hopefully it will give you a comparison of what your's should be doing.

Billy
Author:  Oilburner44 [ Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Thanks guys, i will be measuring the glow plugs and block heater when i get back from my snowmobile trip this weekend. Really appreciate all the suggestions!

On a side note, i have noticed that at idle sometimes it idles a little ruff could this have anything to do with fuel delivery from the filter system? It feels like it skips a beat every now and then. like a cough. I wish i had taken disel classes in school, because with gasjobs, its easy for me but these diesels are new and very different with some things.
Author:  Oilburner44 [ Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: researching like crazy! Nube trying to figure out block
Well figured it out. My cord was indeed burnt. I installed a pan heater anyhow, which helps a lot. Will mess with the cord this summer.

Then maybe glowplugs!
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