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CRD rocker arm wear...more info
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=74420		 Page 1 of 9
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  CRD rocker arm wear...more info
Recently we tore down a couple CRD engines for timing belts, etc.

Engine 1
0w-40 Mobil1 (Chrysler spec oil) at 80,000 miles
**Owner had oil changed every 5,000miles**
One #4 exhaust valve failed and ruined the cylinder
Al 16 rocker arms showed serious wear issues
Engine wasted!
No engine tune


Engine 2
5W-40 all its life, the last 50,000miles with 5W-40 Mobil1 diesel truck oil
engine had 104,000miles on it
No wear noticed on any of the rocker arms, they look at good as new
The last 50,000 miles had GDE ECO tune and HOT tune

We are leaning more toward the 0W-40 oil as being garbage and would definitely recommend people change to a 5W-40 diesel rated oil and a 10W-40 or 15W-40 during the summer months.

For sure reducing the soot in the oil will be beneficial, but the data is starting to point more towards oil quality being the root cause with failing rocker arms. How much is your engine worth to you?
Author:  thermorex [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  CRD rocker arm wear...more info
Too bad I stocked 3 more oil changes with mobil1 0w40. I suspected the diesel Mobil 1 was better but when I got the oil I haven't had enough info. I'll just change the oil at 4-5k and also have a black stone analysis to see what's what.

Rockers wise, I plan on changing them ASAP, more for my peace of mind, I can even hear them ticking in my dreams, lol.

Regarding the issues with the engines, it's possible that the failed engine had a driver ignorant enough to run w/o a tune or the orm and have the mobil1 0w40 oil change done at 10k or more... This is another reason crd owners should do the gde tunes as soon as they get the car.
Author:  Hexus [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
thermorex wrote:
Too bad I stocked 3 more oil changes with mobil1 0w40. I suspected the diesel Mobil 1 was better but when I got the oil I haven't had enough info. I'll just change the oil at 4-5k and also have a black stone analysis to see what's what.

Rockers wise, I plan on changing them ASAP, more for my peace of mind, I can even hear them ticking in my dreams, lol.

Regarding the issues with the engines, it's possible that the failed engine had a driver ignorant enough to run w/o a tune or the orm and have the mobil1 0w40 oil change done at 10k or more... This is another reason crd owners should do the gde tunes as soon as they get the car.


After Looking at my rockers, I'm more convinced that the argument that "MY TIMING BELT SKIPPED A TOOTH" is completely invalid. I believe what we are experiencing is plan flat out Rocker failure.

It's kind of like a large train derailment [I do those too often], where the resulting damage kind of masks the original cause because when the rocker fails it damages all the rest of the rockers/lifters thus hiding all the wear issues (somewhat).

I got a GDE Tune at 107k (roughly) but the damage had already been done with the EGR valve and the rockers failed at 117k, the turbo dying was the straw that broke the camel's back apparently.

My timing belt looked great, there was no excessive dusting, and visually it's hard (Naked eye nearly impossible) to tell that it's any more worn than the brand new belt. (I should have taken numerous pictures, but I just held it up and looked at it.)

I got video of the rocker wear/damage, and you can tell it's wear and not "sudden damage" by how bad it is, and I believe a lot of the pictures I've seen evidence the same thing.

It is VERY plausible that the 0W40 oil is crap, that's why I have switched to the Rotella T6 5W-40 now as many others here have recommended. I may go to a heavier weight in the summer, not sure.

I always changed my oil at 6k, never pushed it to 6250.
Author:  thermorex [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  CRD rocker arm wear...more info
I believe that... This is why I'm a little stressed out having the crd in Alabama till end of April and not being able to do the rockers sooner. Fingers crossed, lol.

Kjjet also suspects the rockers as being the root of his issue, I tend to believe they slowly degrade till they don't move and fail, tension is created in cam shafts and timing belt skips.
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
On the timing belt change with the CRD at 104,000miles, the belt seemed to be in very good shape, the vehicle is a 2005. Belt wear very minimal as the Goodyear name and part number was still readable. The tensioner pointer had moved maybe a half inch from the factory setting and was still well within safe limits.
Author:  Big Montana [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
Well crap. I've used 0W 40 since new. 6-9k mile changes. How can I tell if my rocker arms are bad? Is the sound that noticeable?

Should I replace them knowing I've only had the GDE tune for the last 45k miles out of the 115k on the engine?
Author:  thermorex [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  CRD rocker arm wear...more info
The only way to see the rockers is to take out the valve cover (upper head) that involves removing glow plugs, injectors etc. it's a lot of work. And if you do all that work, you might as well replace them, lol. Gde sells the rockers for 500, or you can buy them from that uk guy, vm specialist I think (400 some). If you do get them though, keep the money in the country and buy from gde, lol.

I'd guess that since you had gde tune for such a long time and from low miles, you should be fine.
Author:  TJ2 [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
I'd love to know how many miles the 'tuned' engine had on it when it got tuned?
Author:  thermorex [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  CRD rocker arm wear...more info
TJ2 wrote:
I'd love to know how many miles the 'tuned' engine had on it when it got tuned?

I think Keith said the last 50k miles, that should be 54k when they tuned it.
Author:  mark2m [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
I have no noticeable wear from my rocker arms at just over 100,000 miles. I bought my jeep used with under 30,000 miles. Since almost when I bought it I had ran it with the ORM and I want to say the last 20,000 miles or so have been the GDE Hot Tune. I've been running Rotella T6 for probably 45,000 miles and change my oil at 12,000 intervals since buying it. Also run the EHM for 20,000 miles or so. No play on my turbo also. I may been lucky I don't know but biggest issue is a head gasket leak. Working on fixing that now.
Author:  ChooChooman74 [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
I had serious rocker wear at 90k. Bought it used at 74k and put the GDE tune in at the time.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Author:  MRausch82 [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
My rocker condition is unknown to me at 87.6K (as of today). I have run the ORM since 47K, and still run 0w40. The oil stays clean, and I have been changing it around 4500 miles. I may go back to 5w40 when I switch everything over to Amsoil eventually. I still think the biggest issue is the soot from the EGR. I suspect that one who has run the ORM from a lower mileage, and maintains the engine well will have better results regardless of the oil. I'd like to see what rockers look like from someone who has done just that; run a tune or ORM from a low mileage, changes the oil on a regular basis, and has used 0w40. Keith: what 5w40 was run in the engine with good rockers? I am curious.
Author:  thermorex [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  CRD rocker arm wear...more info
MRausch82 wrote:
My rocker condition is unknown to me at 87.6K (as of today). I have run the ORM since 47K, and still run 0w40. The oil stays clean, and I have been changing it around 4500 miles. I may go back to 5w40 when I switch everything over to Amsoil eventually. I still think the biggest issue is the soot from the EGR. I suspect that one who has run the ORM from a lower mileage, and maintains the engine well will have better results regardless of the oil. I'd like to see what rockers look like from someone who has done just that; run a tune or ORM from a low mileage, changes the oil on a regular basis, and has used 0w40. Keith: what 5w40 was run in the engine with good rockers? I am curious.


I'm not Keith, but I know the answer, so here it is: Mobil 1 5w40 diesel truck, any autoparts should have it(for sure advance, saw it there).
Author:  CATCRD [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
Big Montana wrote:
Well crap. I've used 0W 40 since new. 6-9k mile changes. How can I tell if my rocker arms are bad? Is the sound that noticeable?

If you have access to a DRB scanner or you have an android phone with the Torque app, you can read the idle mass air flow and see if it is around the ideal values posted by GDE. Worn rockers mean less airflow.
Author:  geordi [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
Not to throw a wet blanket on the great research from GDE...

bought my CRD at 30k miles. Disabled the EGR immediately, used only 5w-40 Rotella T6 or Mobil 1 turbo diesel truck (also known as Delvac 1) 5w-40 full synth oils... Engine #1 blew rod bottom at 60k after turbo failure. Replacement engine had 60k on it at install, got GDE eco tune at that time. Same oils, engine blew rod bottom again at 134k miles.

6000 or less mile oil changes. On taking the top end apart, the rockers (with just 74k on them - new at engine replacement) appeared as perfect match to brand-new rockers bought from The VM Specialist.
Author:  thermorex [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  CRD rocker arm wear...more info
CATCRD wrote:
Big Montana wrote:
Well crap. I've used 0W 40 since new. 6-9k mile changes. How can I tell if my rocker arms are bad? Is the sound that noticeable?

If you have access to a DRB scanner or you have an android phone with the Torque app, you can read the idle mass air flow and see if it is around the ideal values posted by GDE. Worn rockers mean less airflow.

Actually that's a great idea, didn't think to do that. Thanks!
Author:  jeepdan [ Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
I have 132,000 miles on mine. The last 65,000 miles running clean with the GDE eco-tune :)
Runs great with no abnormal noise.
Have always used 0-40w Mobil 1 with 6,000 mile oil changes.
I may be stubbern, or just plain stupid, but I'm going to continue using 0-40w until it breaks.
At 132,000 miles, it's too late to go back now. :5SHOTS:
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
We are a little over 100K at this point. The EGR was disabled at 30K with SEGR and has continued to be disabled by using GDE tunes. We have run mostly 00W-40 Mobil 1, but the last three summers have run 5W-40 Mobil 1. We have also been using ZDDP (zinc additive) for the past 50K.

Until someone has worn out rockers while using a GDE tune for most of the engine life and has been running 00W-40, it will remain to be seen if it is excessive soot in the oil or too thin oil without diesel-specific additives.

Obviously, I am rooting for soot being the problem. (It takes 3K after an oil change before the oil in our CRD begins to have any real color to it and 4-5K before it becomes opaque.)

DOC
Author:  jeepdan [ Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
One thing, it's pretty safe to say, that we should be taking the rocker cover off and checking things out during the 100,000 mile service intervals.
Most of our CRDs are nearing 100,000 miles, the damage has already been done. Changing oil grades now might be fruitless without replacing worn parts. :cry:
I'm going inspect CRD #2 this summer for rocker wear. I had no prior maintenence history on it when I bought it at 103,000 miles.
Haven't had the extra cash for the GDE tune, so I have been doing ORM on it for the last 18 months.
With the ORM mode, the oil has never cleaned up and looks like black paint in a very short time :cry:
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD rocker arm wear...more info
CATCRD,

I recall that, but not the values.

I have the Torque Pro App and would like to see what I get. Should you check at a reference RPM, load, no-load, etc?

Thanks,

DOC
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